Do you consider Greb, Langford, Robinson, Armstrong untouchable in an alltime list?

Canelo said:
It's a null point, everyone had to cherry pick back then, you had to fight as much as possible to get paid. It was a product of the environment, every single fighter from back then could be called a cherry picker by todays standards.

It works both ways, the wins don't hold as much weight as they do today, but it balances out when you fight over 200 times, every other month.
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while I agree, you have to remember that there are a lot of fighters (especially in Latin America/Asia/Africa) that fight as regularly as a lot of hte old guys and still get called cherry pickers
 
I saw a video of Grebs shadowboxing awhile back. It looked pretty amateurish & bad.
 
1122 said:
I saw a video of Grebs shadowboxing awhile back. It looked pretty amateurish & bad.
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I know what youre referring to but that isnt really shadowboxing. They had some strange routines back in the 20s. Def wouldnt draw any sort of conclusions from that. He beat and schooled some alltime greats who we do have footage of and they look great on film (Mickey, Tunney, Gibbons etc.)



Not much here either but far more than he showed in that "shadowboxing"
 
greb I don't know about, he did look awful in the footage I saw. robinson and Armstrong are still up there in my opinion. Armstrong had legendary stamina but a relatively short career because of his furious style. Ray is generally considered the best for a lot of reasons, he did everything you can expect out of a great champion and he did all those things in spades. Of course I believe that there can be a better fighter but I don't think it's happened yet. If Roy Jones had a more competitive nature and a better chin, not to mention better fundamentals, he'd have been greater. If Ali had more power and better fundamentals he could have too. Ray Leonard maybe could have with a better chin and fatter resume, meaning, I"d have loved to see him beat all the mediocrities who on a good night could maybe beat him. Starling, Curry, Mccrory, Breland, Mugabi, Honeghan good and/or dangerous fighters who weren't quite great but very good. I think maybe Hector Camacho could have been greater if he had enough ambition instead of being satisfied with a couple titles and some cash. Pernel Whitaker would be a nightmare for anyone in his prime just because he was so mean and evasive. Maybe someday we'll have better fighters and maybe they'll even be confirmed to be non-ped using too but I don't think I've seen one better than Ray yet.
 
Personally, if there's a fighter in your P4P list that you've never seen fight, you're list is based off of heresay and inferior information. No one would ever be able to dethrone those fighters from a p4p list, as the reasons they are up there can't be analyzed and compared evenly with fighters of today. Those are bad lists IMO.

I'd only put Robinson, of that crop, as a strong favorite p4p. But still, when there's a fighter better than him, you should be able to outright see it.
 
cottagecheesefan said:
As boxing is the sport of prize fighting, a good measure of greatness could be analyzed through total accumulation of prizes. Look no further than Money Mayweather, p4p greatest sportsman ever.
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If by prizes you mean titles I have to disagree. Titles are pretty much meaningless in terms of championships nowadays. Canelo as an example could beat BJS to win a MW title or he could beat GGG to become champion. It's hard to even defend lineal titles again using Canelo as an example or maybe even Stevenson.
 
Seano said:
I sort of think Greb gets overrated a little, depending on who you're talking to. Yeah, he fought a lot but his record is padded with a lot of tomato cans. Yeah, he fought guys who are in the HOF but they are guys who have records that would get laughed at today. He definitely has some quality wins there, Tunney especially, but if you dig a little, the quality isn't what the Greb fanatics like to make it out to be.
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Can you throw him a bone at least for fighting while blind in one eye?
 
ironfist05 said:
while I agree, you have to remember that there are a lot of fighters (especially in Latin America/Asia/Africa) that fight as regularly as a lot of hte old guys and still get called cherry pickers
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It's not really cherry picking if you're fighting 10 or 20 times a year and still making big fights in between the cans. Chavez being an example.
 
I dont think anybody is untouchable..but the person that's going to unseat them is a person that shares their spirit of conquest ...
 
StickAndMove said:
If by prizes you mean titles I have to disagree. Titles are pretty much meaningless in terms of championships nowadays. Canelo as an example could beat BJS to win a MW title or he could beat GGG to become champion. It's hard to even defend lineal titles again using Canelo as an example or maybe even Stevenson.
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the prize is money.
 
Duran, sounds like you got some good peyote.
 
Sunfish said:
I don't consider him a shoo in to a top 10 atg list.
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I rate him top 10 but he is questionable. Would love to see Mayweather vs Duran at 140. We'd tell Pacquiao to go back to FW.
 
Sunfish said:
I don't consider him a shoo in to a top 10 atg list.
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Well pretty much every historian easily considers him top 10 with many having him top 5 or fringe top 5

Even Ray Arcel one of the best judges of talent and arguably the GOAT trainer considers him on par w/ SRR and Greb. Of course he trained Roberto but hes always been ubiased in evaluating him

"I rank Roberto Duran with two other guys who were naturals, guys who never had to be taught a thing about how to box--Sugar Ray Robinson and Harry Greb," Arcel said from his New York home.

"Oh, I'd occasionally point out something Roberto wasn't doing correctly, but it was always a little thing, certainly nothing fundamental. The man was born knowing how to fight. He's an amazing man, really--I don't believe I ever saw a fighter who had the ability to snap out of trouble so quickly when things began to go against him."
 
ExitLUPin said:
Well pretty much every historian easily considers him top 10 with many having him top 5 or fringe top 5

Even Ray Arcel one of the best judges of talent and arguably the GOAT trainer considers him on par w/ SRR and Greb. Of course he trained Roberto but hes always been ubiased in evaluating him

"I rank Roberto Duran with two other guys who were naturals, guys who never had to be taught a thing about how to box--Sugar Ray Robinson and Harry Greb," Arcel said from his New York home.

"Oh, I'd occasionally point out something Roberto wasn't doing correctly, but it was always a little thing, certainly nothing fundamental. The man was born knowing how to fight. He's an amazing man, really--I don't believe I ever saw a fighter who had the ability to snap out of trouble so quickly when things began to go against him."
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Good for them. Seano probably has him somewhere in his top 250.

He's obviously a great I don't consider him top 10 all time, your opinion is different to mine and that's cool.
 
Sunfish said:
Good for them. Seano probably has him somewhere in his top 250.

He's obviously a great I don't consider him top 10 all time, your opinion is different to mine and that's cool.
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Seano? As in Sean O'Grady?

That's cool, ppl have opinions differing from the expert consensus all the time so there's nothing wrong with that
 
My mind is blown if Greb isn't on there.
Tunney
Walker
Rosenbloom
...that's just a couple to get you started. He fought literally everyone, never drew the colour line and was a complete badass fighting the last four years of his life (late twenties to early thirties) with one freaking eye against his stiffest competition.
 
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