Do you believe it's important for BJJ to look good in MMA?

[dmwalking]

I'm piggy backing on Brian McLaughlin's thread here. Reason being it brought up the question and I didn't want to hijack the thread.

So what do you say? Should BJJ just be its own thing? Do you feel like MMA is no longer relevant proof of fight effectiveness?


What say ye?

 

[dmwalking]

Personally, I believe that sport BJJ has a place. It's fun. It's safe, for the most part. And it does teach enough basic material to give people functional self defense tools.

I do believe that modern MMA rules don't benefit the BJJ style. But truth be told, even with unlimited time and no stand ups, from the looks of it, they'd still be losing. The current style of BJJ just isn't well suited for fighting in general unless you're dealing with a lay person. With MMA reaching near mainstream status, most guys are familar with what it is to sprawl. And most BJJ guys have horrible take downs.

While modern MMA is no longer the martial arts proving ground it once was, it's still very telling.


I do believe it's important for BJJ as a martial art to be respected. I do believe that BJJ should be more respected and feard in MMA. These days a guy hears BJJ black belt and they have no fear. They just focus on sprawl and brawl because they know their opponent's striking and takedowns will suck. BJJ black belts used to be feared. Now guys are more afraid of d1 wrestlers. That shouldn't be the case. BJJ has the potential to be a viscious martial art. And with some tweaks, it could be.

 

[Mike Piekarski]

While a jiu jitsu fighter may be better for a vale tudo-style of competition (unlimited time, no gloves, no standups), they can still be effective in MMA. I don't think they should be separate. The only reason I fought MMA was to prove to myself that I could make my jiu jitsu work in a real fight. Even if jiu jitsu is not the best base to make the optimal MMA fighter I think it is silly to say it doesn't have a place.

 

[o'dubhlaoich]

MMA is as close as a real fight can legally get. When it comes to mma its not really the style but the actual fighter that matters. Give me a wrestling base any day over a bjj base.

 

[Higus]

A lot of people invest a ton of energy getting good at BJJ (or any other martial art for that matter), and they have an emotional investment to seeing it succeed in the Octagon. Seeing a BJJ specialist perform poorly is going to make someone question why they are spending so much time trying to improve a craft that isn't paying off dividends in MMA.

Personally, I think BJJ is as important as ever in MMA. Even if they aren't using it to score submissions, there aren't many fighters in the UFC who aren't at least at brown belt level.

 

[j123]

All martial arts have to adapt to mma, bjj is no exception.

I do believe it's important for BJJ as a martial art to be respected. I do believe that BJJ should be more respected and feard in MMA. These days a guy hears BJJ black belt and they have no fear. They just focus on sprawl and brawl because they know their opponent's striking and takedowns will suck. BJJ black belts used to be feared. Now guys are more afraid of d1 wrestlers. That shouldn't be the case. BJJ has the potential to be a viscious martial art. And with some tweaks, it could be.

Sounds more like the fault of the practitioner. I train at a mma gym and not a bjj gym so I'm not sure of the ratio of top game vs bottom game there. But if what you're saying is occurring too often (start from knees, or in guard), then working heavily on takedowns and top game should be the priority.

I get it that someone with a pure bjj background could struggle due to strikes, that makes sense. What doesn't is the lack to takedowns, for a martial art/combat sport that is purely grappling to lack in this area is mind boggling.

I do believe that BJJ should be more respected and feard in MMA

I take it, you do bjj and are quite proud of it?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Nope. MMA has evolved beyond any one art. You can't be successful without knowing wrestling, striking, and submissions so the idea of BJJ having some primacy of place is nothing but nostalgia. If you want to train MMA, there are at least as many MMA gyms as BJJ gyms so join one. Trying to fit everything into a BJJ framework seems silly for me now that the days of true style vs. style are long gone.

 

[dmwalking]

All martial arts have to adapt to mma, bjj is no exception.



Sounds more like the fault of the practitioner. I train at a mma gym and not a bjj gym so I'm not sure of the ratio of top game vs bottom game there. But if what you're saying is occurring too often (start from knees, or in guard), then working heavily on takedowns and top game should be the priority.

I get it that someone with a pure bjj background could struggle due to strikes, that makes sense. What doesn't is the lack to takedowns, for a martial art/combat sport that is purely grappling to lack in this area is mind boggling.



I take it, you do bjj and are quite proud of it?

Good post. And yeah, I do BJJ and I love it more than any martial art I've ever learned.

Nope. MMA has evolved beyond any one art. You can't be successful without knowing wrestling, striking, and submissions so the idea of BJJ having some primacy of place is nothing but nostalgia. If you want to train MMA, there are at least as many MMA gyms as BJJ gyms so join one. Trying to fit everything into a BJJ framework seems silly for me now that the days of true style vs. style are long gone.

The days of true style vs style may be long gone, but styles do make fights. It just kind of sucks to see decent wrestlers with wack striking be more feared than a BJJ black belt. I admit, part of it is nostalgia, but another part of it is faith. I truly believe that a BJJ stylist could develop an MMA relevant style of BJJ. I still believe in the effectiveness of BJJ.

 

[Mainez]

I think MMA is the closest to real fighting, but still is just a sport. But it's sometimes crazy to hear MMA students talk about real fighting. An example is from one of my buddies who was telling me that he's capable of "defending himself in a street fight" because of his MMA training. I asked him, "How so?" just wondering what his answer would be and he responded, "Because I'll be able to hold the guy against the cage should I get in trouble and dirty box until I get him down." I didn't know if he really thought there would be a random cage that would appear before the fight started.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The days of true style vs style may be long gone, but styles do make fights. It just kind of sucks to see decent wrestlers with wack striking be more feared than a BJJ black belt. I admit, part of it is nostalgia, but another part of it is faith. I truly believe that a BJJ stylist could develop an MMA relevant style of BJJ. I still believe in the effectiveness of BJJ.

The single biggest problem for BJJ guys has always been the lack of takedown proficiency and takedown defense. The BJJ teams that have had the most success have been those like the old BTT that brought in wrestlers and got really good at wrestling. Ricardo Arona for example wasn't feared because of his BJJ per se, he was feared because he could take anyone down and beat the hell out of them (also, great leg kicks). Sperry, Bustamante, these guys were feared for their all around grappling game not their submissions and bottom games. So if you want to get really good at taking people down, staying on top, and beating them up until you can grab a sub go ahead, but recognize that that skill set is much more dependent upon good wrestling than anything unique to being good at BJJ. What BJJ gives you and has always given you is a good way to finish the fight quickly if given the opportunity and really good defense when in bad positions on the ground. That used to be enough by itself, it's not now. We all just have to deal with it.

 

[Gojujutsu]

No. The thing to me is this. Like UchiMata said, mma now is not the mma of the 90's. To me, I feel my bjj will prepare me to adequately deal 1on1 with guys who have not trained takedown defense or ground grappling. If I see any proof that it will not, that is what would matter to me.

 

[j123]

I think MMA is the closest to real fighting, but still is just a sport. But it's sometimes crazy to hear MMA students talk about real fighting. An example is from one of my buddies who was telling me that he's capable of "defending himself in a street fight" because of his MMA training. I asked him, "How so?" just wondering what his answer would be and he responded, "Because I'll be able to hold the guy against the cage should I get in trouble and dirty box until I get him down." I didn't know if he really thought there would be a random cage that would appear before the fight started.

Obviously not a cage, unless they were fighting in a basketball court (or batting centre). I guess your friend should've said corner/alley/wall etc instead of cage

 

[Jinn]

The days of true style vs style may be long gone, but styles do make fights. It just kind of sucks to see decent wrestlers with wack striking be more feared than a BJJ black belt. I admit, part of it is nostalgia, but another part of it is faith. I truly believe that a BJJ stylist could develop an MMA relevant style of BJJ. I still believe in the effectiveness of BJJ.

If anyone doubts the relevance or effectiveness of bjj go to any legit MMA camp - seriously, any one of them - without knowing bjj or an equivalent level of submissions and see how long you last on the mats.

In case everyone has forgotten what happens to wrestlers that don't know bjj/submissions when they take on someone that does



All American wrestler Zach Light also got subbed by Pete Spratt lmao...this should've stopped being a debate 15 years ago or more. Bjj is not only relevant in MMA, it's an absolute necessity to know.

 

[Macca97]

Damien Maia...

 

[dmwalking]

The single biggest problem for BJJ guys has always been the lack of takedown proficiency and takedown defense. The BJJ teams that have had the most success have been those like the old BTT that brought in wrestlers and got really good at wrestling. Ricardo Arona for example wasn't feared because of his BJJ per se, he was feared because he could take anyone down and beat the hell out of them (also, great leg kicks). Sperry, Bustamante, these guys were feared for their all around grappling game not their submissions and bottom games. So if you want to get really good at taking people down, staying on top, and beating them up until you can grab a sub go ahead, but recognize that that skill set is much more dependent upon good wrestling than anything unique to being good at BJJ. What BJJ gives you and has always given you is a good way to finish the fight quickly if given the opportunity and really good defense when in bad positions on the ground. That used to be enough by itself, it's not now. We all just have to deal with it.

Good post bro. I definitely see your point.

 

[Einarr]

It doesn't matter. Modern MMA has devolved past the point of me caring about it.

 

[dmwalking]

Damien Maia...

The same Demian Maia who got full mount on Rory and did nothing with it only to lose the next two rounds?

 

[LoRezzz]

I get it that someone with a pure bjj background could struggle due to strikes, that makes sense. What doesn't is the lack to takedowns, for a martial art/combat sport that is purely grappling to lack in this area is mind boggling.

I would guess that's because the assumption early on (at least from the Helio side) was that you weren't going to be taking down bigger, stronger dudes. The worst case scenario was you the weakling being on your back being pounded on by a muscled athlete and that was their training priority. purely my speculation.

I don't think it's important for BJJ to look good in MMA. As others have written it, BJJ is an MMA staple and just about everyone trains it. We can argue about what the best "base" is, but there are few high level fighters that don't train some kind of BJJ, defensive or otherwise. Casuals might not understand its importance, but fans, fighters, and coaches know.

 

[Supereem]

The single biggest problem for BJJ guys has always been the lack of takedown proficiency and takedown defense. The BJJ teams that have had the most success have been those like the old BTT that brought in wrestlers and got really good at wrestling. Ricardo Arona for example wasn't feared because of his BJJ per se, he was feared because he could take anyone down and beat the hell out of them (also, great leg kicks). Sperry, Bustamante, these guys were feared for their all around grappling game not their submissions and bottom games. So if you want to get really good at taking people down, staying on top, and beating them up until you can grab a sub go ahead, but recognize that that skill set is much more dependent upon good wrestling than anything unique to being good at BJJ. What BJJ gives you and has always given you is a good way to finish the fight quickly if given the opportunity and really good defense when in bad positions on the ground. That used to be enough by itself, it's not now. We all just have to deal with it.

Bustamante could take down both Dan Henderson and Matt Lindland.

Excellent post. Most modern BJJ practitioners have beyond horrible takedowns. But why bother training in them when you can literally focus all your effort on guard like the Meow bros?

 

[Supereem]

If anyone doubts the relevance or effectiveness of bjj go to any legit MMA camp - seriously, any one of them - without knowing bjj or an equivalent level of submissions and see how long you last on the mats.

In case everyone has forgotten what happens to wrestlers that don't know bjj/submissions when they take on someone that does



All American wrestler Zach Light also got subbed by Pete Spratt lmao...this should've stopped being a debate 15 years ago or more. Bjj is not only relevant in MMA, it's an absolute necessity to know.

Submissions exist in other arts. Catch Wrestling for example. Sakuraba used pro wrestling submissions to submit Gracies.

What is unique to BJJ are concepts like the guard and submitting off your back. That, amongst other things, is what separates BJJ from Sambo, Catch and what not.

If guard is no longer relevant then arguably BJJ is no longer relevant when one could learn the submissions from a martial art that blends better with the modern focus of MMA.