do u respect/acknowledge great/eff def

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by devante, Jun 22, 2008.

  1. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    do u respect or acknowledge submission def, or takedown def or the ability to eff def and gain superior position on the ground; in many times when someone is subbing someone or controlling them on the ground or taking them down (shootiing, throwing, tripping), people give them credit..acknowledge the improvements or adjustments they made to finish and they marvel at the creativity in regards to their application of a basic move. Hazeletts's armbar is a key example. or serra carter, people talk about the attempts and position; but don't talk about the counters, escapes or avoidance

    but when a person is able to def a litany of submissions or gain dominant position or maintain it or keep from being taken down, people don't give it as much publicity; esp in straight up grappling. Someone will say something like yeah u defended, but u were stalling or u were just surviving or u were able to maintain top but u did nothing. All the while hyping up the guy who attempted a million subs and maybe pulling one out or not even getting one; never acknowledging the guy who made the subtle adj or strategy that kept them from being finished regardless of how many bad positions put in. I don't care if the guy out positioned, he didn't finish; an that has got to show some sort of skill, ability. Same thign w/takedowns; u can't get the guy down, so now he must be running or stalling, is it that or is it that ur takedowns aren't as good as u say or think cus u can't a)get this guy down or B) get him down clean enough to control him or even if he is just controlling u from the top, is he stalling or are u just not good enough to get him off of u. He can't stall, lay and pray or survive if ur good enough to keep him from doing so; the fact u can't ha s more to do w/ur lack of ability, than his.

    i talked to some instructors and some agree w/the masses saying that the person surviing isn't really working to win; then again others have said if the grappler is really good he can overcome that stalling or whatnot and win. An that the guy who can't finish, reverse or get his opp down; should look at where he is lacking, not pointing out all the ish he could do or could have done
     
  2. batman69

    batman69 Purple Belt

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    i can't respect the total text message lingo you're using dude. it makes my brain hurt and i don't lik it when my brain hurts. try reposting this, but written better next time, please.
     
  3. DaRuckus337

    DaRuckus337 Black Belt

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    haha, I have to admit, I could not make it through even the first paragraph of your post. But to respond to the title and obvious point of the thread, Of course I acknowledge and respect takedown/submission defense and good positional control. To break down grappling very generally, it's 1/3 defense, 1/3 dictating position, and 1/3 attacking for a finish. Why would anyone NOT acknowledge and respect 2/3rds of what it is to be a well rounded grappler? Only the dumbest, youngest, couch jockey/casual fan in the HWs would dismiss these aspects of grappling.
     
  4. Mikey Triangles

    Mikey Triangles Bending Joints the Wrong Way Since 1985

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  5. Tony Manifold

    Tony Manifold Brown Belt

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    That was painful to read and that is a shame because I think you are trying to make a great point. If you can not defend you are not a complete fighter. I don't think it is stalling if you are on the defensive, some guys just throw out a million sub attempts and if you are a methodical fighter like me, you need to defend while you work your game. It is the grappling equivalent of wait for your opponent to punch himself out.
     
  6. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    Although i give credit to effective clinch fighting, escaping having your back on the cage, escaping bad positions and defending subs. The guy who is attempting the subs and attempting the takedowns deserves more credit, coz they are attempting to finish the fight... If you are constantly attacking you force your opponent into defending, and if you are defending you are losing.
     
  7. Commissar

    Commissar Gold Belt

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    Sorry devante. I can't read your posts. Ever. And I can tell they are yours from the thread title.

    To try to answer though, yes. I get just as excited watching some good takedown defense or submission defense/counter as I do watching successful submissions and takedowns.
     
  8. Commissar

    Commissar Gold Belt

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    Not always. A guy I train with has made an entire game around counterattacks, and it works extremely well in tournaments.
     
  9. SFinclined

    SFinclined Purple Belt

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    I have no clue what you're talking about.
     
  10. ooitzoo

    ooitzoo Purple Belt

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    Dude, i think everyone respects and acknowledges defense BUT in order for the other guy to have a significant sub threat on you he has to put you in a bad position first. Remember, "position before submission"; you need to control the position game first. Credible sub attempt implies "bad positioning".

    That said, everyone makes mistakes which lead to getting subbed or getting put into a possible sub attempt. That's understandable. In the case of Hazelett, that wasn't a fight where Burkman made a mistake or missed something resulting in a sub attempt. That was a case of BJJ clinic being run on Burkman; its inherently impressive for Hazelett.
     
  11. stu3ufc**

    stu3ufc** Yoshihiro Akiyama

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    i read it easy

    i appreciate it--- drunk fans might not
     
  12. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    All im saying is that people never give credit to the person who is able to intelligently and effectively defend, counter and escape subs, takedowns, throws, etc; i understand its impressive to use intelligent and well executed offensive skills, but how the hell are you so impressed by a person who isn't finishing. Yet your not impressed w/the guy who's def and counter skills are soo good that the submission/takedown machine can do nothing w/him; as i stated people commented on serra throwing a million subs up against shonie and putting shonie in bad positions, yet noone seemed to comment the incredible defense, escapes and counters to these subs being applied by a legit mma blackbelt. Or as much as we give props to guys who apply subs and have subbed almost everyone they face; but a guy like hendo who has only been finished 2x in mma competition isn't often given alot of credit, people talk about his power/takedowns. But not his ability to def, escape subs from some of the best in the world; if a guy gets tapped left and right we laugh at them (see melvin guilliard), yet we dont' go on and on about the guys who have, for the majority of their careers, not gotten subbed...or only got subbed by the creme de la creme of mma grapplers.

    when someone gets finished people say he needs to learn how to grapple; when someone shows extensive defense, noone says a thing.

    i give u the offensive grappler deserves props for using an array of subs, sweeps, shoots, throws, trips, etc; well executed tech is great, but if he can't finish or eff control the guy he is grappling. Well doesn't he deserve some respect.

    if i can go 15 minutes w/dustin hazelett, not get subbed and defend the majority of takedowns; don't i deserve some kind of props for that, it can't just be me hanging on or stalling, as an instructor once told me if u can't keep him from stalling your probably just not that good...something in your game isn't where it needs to be and that is why your getting stalled out.
     
  13. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    but isn't it impressive if u are able to control position, get an opponent down and apply subs; but can't finish or control or maintain position.

    How can u not be impressed, unless your not that good on the ground, that a person your dominating and controlling is able to keep you from finishing...that deserves some credit
     
  14. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Something about the way your head works is not normal. That text appears intelligent yet incomprehensible at the same time.
     
  15. Tony Manifold

    Tony Manifold Brown Belt

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    devante, I think I agree with you. I am having a real hard time deciphering what you wrote but I think you are saying we should praise people who are hard to finish. If that is the case, I agree.

    Now some tips: Capitalize the word "I" and spell you with a y and an o. You use semi colons yet don't bother with proper spelling. You are a very confusing person.
     
  16. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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    I have to agree I was LOSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

    WTF is eff?
     
  17. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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    That was much more clear....

    You are right people don't give TOO much credit to submission defense but they certainly DO to takedown defense. Ex Chuck, GSP etc.
    You rarely see someone credited for good submission defense, usually bc the guys with great sub defense either get credit for their own subs or their GnP.
     
  18. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    exactly my point, enough credit is given to the guy attempting and/or finishing the subs; not enough is given to the guy def, avoiding or escaping them. WHat is worse in some grappling classes/clubs, people actually attack the guy who is showing excellent def; saying all he did was survive, stall or run, going on to say they controlled positon and were applying all these subs.

    they take away from what the guy who defended or escaped; but give themselves all sort of credit for UNSUCCESSFULLY attempting a gang of subs and controlling position, to me thats backwards. You were able to dominate position, attempt all sorts of subs and u couldn't finish; why the hell are you braging about that.

    i mean it shows a certain tech acumen that u did all that; but that being said, it shows how good he must be to be dominated like that and not be finished.
     
  19. blanko

    blanko Guest

    cus it's just a matter of time. If you are positionally dominated and are just fending off subs then sooner or later you will get subbed.
     
  20. damit2hell

    damit2hell Guest

    fail -.-' can't/didn't want to try to finish your post
     

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