Do people really believe Floyd vs Tenshin was fixed ?

[KenkaBancho]

LOL Man, the more you guys type to build you case, the more obvious it becomes that your theory teeters on a mountain of bullshit.

The ‘young gun falls’ storyline would be much more effective if Tenshin was made to look semi-competent, and the crowd was actually entertained. This was an absolute dud of a fight, from any fan’s perspective.

Japan likes their heroes to show courage and, if they are to lose, at least take a proper beating, Saku-style - not have zero succes in the fight, get blitzed before they can even shed a drop of blood and have their corner throw in the towel.

Are you even Japanese?

Takada-Rickson
Masato-Buakaw
Gomi-Aurelio
Cro Cop-Randleman

 

[CPH]

Takada-Rickson
Masato-Buakaw
Gomi-Aurelio
Cro Cop-Randleman

So your argument in this case is: “Never mind arguments relating to the actual fight - some fights in Pride and K1 were shady, so this particular one has to be too.” ...Talk about lazy.

 

[CPH]

You don't get it.

Did you even read the post? What, they're going to let a kid with a bright future, who would probably lose anyway, go to war Saku style in an exhibition?

You’re the one pushing the fantasy that this fight was staged, not me. I’m saying that, even in Japan, a loss can be only used to build a fighter if he actually performs well OR shows a ton of heart.

Tenshin did neither. He got clowned so badly, that his corner quit in under two minutes. And worst of all: the fight sucked.

 

[KenkaBancho]

So your argument in this case is: “Never mind arguments relating to the actual fight - some fights in Pride and K1 were shady, so this particular one has to be too.” ...Talk about lazy.

I've just listed 4 fights where the more popular Japanese fighter (or in CC's case, Japanese supported fighter) lost in an embarassing fashion with zero success. In fact, since you mentioned Sakuraba, did you know that Sakuraba's most famous opponent, Wanderlei Silva, actually got famous in Pride by crushing Sakuraba in three non-competitive fights?

The orgs in which those fights took place went on to do good business and in fact promoted the losing fighters based on the one sided losses.

 

[CPH]

I've just listed 4 fights where the more popular Japanese fighter (or in CC's case, Japanese supported fighter) lost in an embarassing fashion with zero success. In fact, since you mentioned Sakuraba, did you know that Sakuraba's most famous opponent, Wanderlei Silva, actually got famous in Pride by crushing Sakuraba in three non-competitive fights?

The orgs in which those fights took place went on to do good business and in fact promoted the losing fighters based on the one sided losses.

There is zero proof that any of those fights helped the crowd favorite reach new heights of popularity, even marginally. All of these guys were already huge stars by the time these fights happened, and Pride was already the biggest mma promotion in the world. Ultimately though, both K-1 and Pride went under as public interest plummeted.

More importantly, these were fights between Pride/K-1 fighters, so Masato getting humiliated by Buakaw, fox ex., had the upside of creating another hugely popular star under the Max banner and setting the stage for a rematch.

The Floyd/Tenshin exhibition is a one off; Mayweather flies in, humiliates Tenshin, and takes off. There will be no rematch, there will be no money to be made on Mayweather himself.

 

[KenkaBancho]

There is zero proof that any of those fights helped the crowd favorite reach new heights of popularity, even marginally. All of these guys were already huge stars by the time these fights happened, and Pride was already the biggest mma promotion in the world. Ultimately though, both K-1 and Pride went under as public interest plummeted.

More importantly, these were fights between Pride/K-1 fighters, so Masato getting humiliated by Buakaw, fox ex., had the upside of creating another hugely popular star under the Max banner and setting the stage for a rematch.

The Floyd/Tenshin exhibition is a one off; Mayweather flies in, humiliates Tenshin, and takes off. There will be no rematch, there will be no money to be made on Mayweather himself.

Actually, Takada as one of the biggest names in pro wrestling, lost the rematch to Rickson at Pride 4. They first fought at Pride 1 so not sure why you think that Pride was the world's biggest org at their inaugral show. Anyway, Rickson fucked off to nowhere and never fought for Pride again. Pride went on to do another 28++ shows based off the loss, which was never avenged by anyone.

Masato's next fight after losing to Buakaw was with Kid, which got K-1's NYE largest numbers for 04. The beatdown didn't affect that and in any case, He didn't rematch Buakaw until 3 years later. There wasn't any guarantee that a rematch would happen or for a Masato win even if it did. K-1 Max lasted for about another 5 years since that loss until Masato's retirement in 09, so the loss didn't hurt their business either in the big picture.

No one's going to care even if Tenshin lost to May once he starts spin kicking people in the face again. In fact, he was expected to lose. With the right marketing, Rizin can keep him as a bankable main eventer.

 

[14.09]

I've just listed 4 fights where the more popular Japanese fighter (or in CC's case, Japanese supported fighter) lost in an embarassing fashion with zero success. In fact, since you mentioned Sakuraba, did you know that Sakuraba's most famous opponent, Wanderlei Silva, actually got famous in Pride by crushing Sakuraba in three non-competitive fights?

The orgs in which those fights took place went on to do good business and in fact promoted the losing fighters based on the one sided losses.

Without taking a stance on other things you guys are debating, your take on the Sakuraba-Silva trilogy is wrong, and their second fight was actually very competitive.

The first loss was a surprise and raised a question if the new rule change affected the outcome. Rematch was obvious. Sakuraba looked dead serious for once, even looking Silva in the eyes in the stare-down. The match went back and forth, and then Sakuraba even took Silva down, into his domain. Silva then of course picked Saku up and slammed him, popping his shoulder and ending the fight "prematurely". Of course Silva earned the victory, but bad luck was involved in how it ended, and it had been even until that point. In that regard the third fight wasnt that much of a reach to have. Surely we now know how that ended.

 

[CPH]

Actually, Takada as one of the biggest names in pro wrestling, lost the rematch to Rickson at Pride 4. They first fought at Pride 1 so not sure why you think that Pride was the world's biggest org at their inaugral show. Anyway, Rickson fucked off to nowhere and never fought for Pride again. Pride went on to do another 28++ shows based off the loss, which was never avenged by anyone.

Masato's next fight after losing to Buakaw was with Kid, which got K-1's NYE largest numbers for 04. The beatdown didn't affect that and in any case, He didn't rematch Buakaw until 3 years later. There wasn't any guarantee that a rematch would happen or for a Masato win even if it did. K-1 Max lasted for about another 5 years since that loss until Masato's retirement in 09, so the loss didn't hurt their business either in the big picture.

No one's going to care even if Tenshin lost to May once he starts spin kicking people in the face again. In fact, he was expected to lose. With the right marketing, Rizin can keep him as a bankable main eventer.

Takada is the only exception to what I said, and I don't even know why you mention him, as he was always understood to be a celebrity sideshow with little legitimacy as an athlete, rather than a legit top competitor like Gomi, Masato or Saku.

As for Masato.. He might have gotten dominated in the championship fight, but his overall performance in the 2004 Final was still exceptional: beat Jadamba, beat Kraus and managed to go 4 rounds with a fire-breathing Buakaw. You can't sit there and pretend like that kind of performance is in any way comparable to the piss-poor showing Tenshin just had. As I've said before: not all losses are equal in the eyes of the Japanese fans. Putting up a good fight matters.

I also call bullshit on your claim that Masato's rematch with Buakaw 'wasn't guaranteed'. Masato was a legitimate top 4 talent in Max - that alone made it very unlikely that they would never fight again. Then there was the new clinch rule and the fact that K-1 put together the tourney brackets however they liked. ..And if all this failed, they could at any time arrange a superfight.

And again, Masato and Buakaw were both stars on the MAX roster, each making money for the company and boosting ratings simply by being in the same tourneys, creating anticipation for a possible big stakes rematch. How is this at all comparable to the merc job Floyd just pulled on Rizin?

I don't think that Tenshin is irreparably damaged by this loss to Floyd. He will still be Rizin's kickboxing star and people will tune in to his comeback fight and beyond. My issue is with people claiming that Rizin staged this exact outcome because it was a more effective way to promote their star and themselves, than say:

Tenshin making it a soft spar for 1-2 rounds, then finally turning it up to see what happens.

or

Tenshin going easy for all 3 rounds, and actually managing to survive to a draw vs Floyd.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[cabal]

You’re the one pushing the fantasy that this fight was staged, not me. I’m saying that, even in Japan, a loss can be only used to build a fighter if he actually performs well OR shows a ton of heart.

Tenshin did neither. He got clowned so badly, that his corner quit in under two minutes. And worst of all: the fight sucked.

A ton of heart would mean ending the match covered by blood and with multiple concussion , in this case. Tenshin undestand he cannot win and did prefer to leave the ring in his feet

 

[kingcillo24]

Three knockdowns in a round = fight over

The corner's towel had nothing to do with stopping the bout.

 

[linch]

It makes sense to fix it in this way for the story arch because the harder the fall the more impressive the return. Also they can't let it go ahead as a real fight for two important reasons: (1) Mayweather is not going to agree to do it if there is a risk of him losing to this "nobody", however small the odds and (2) if they went all out, Tenshin could get actually hurt and have his chin cracked which may affect his actual ability to win real fights going forward.

Tenshin actually got hurt, those were real punches. You watched them in slo mo, you'll see they really connected.
Tenshin is a fighter. Makes zero sense that he would accept to do this, especially for the reason that he "doesn't get hurt" so that he can fight in the future.
Absolutely no sense.
Do you think floyd Mayweather would have taken a dive at any point in his career?
Do you think McGregor would?
Why does everyone think that tenshin would take a dive? Because he's japanese?
It was opportunity of a lifetime.
If Mayweather's condition was that the fight had to be fixed, there's zero sense for tenshin to do that. No respectable fighter would do that.

 

[linch]

exposure in the west

You mean he got "exposed"?
Nobody gives a fuck about losers and bums in the west, so that kind of exposure means absolutely zero.
Tenshin is not mentally retarded to think that him getting smoked in the first round would mean anything for his career. That's ridiculous

 

[Sous-la-pluie]

tho u could understand some talk on this forum abt tenshin-floyd being a work, when u take into consideration the lofty, jaunty predictions ppl had abt tenshin (fighting inoue b4 '20), this is crazy

 

[leto1776]

There are a lot of morons in the world. Schaub and Robin Black among them, apparently.

Fixing an exhibition match. Good lord.

 

[gono btw]

Without taking a stance on other things you guys are debating, your take on the Sakuraba-Silva trilogy is wrong, and their second fight was actually very competitive.

The first loss was a surprise and raised a question if the new rule change affected the outcome. Rematch was obvious. Sakuraba looked dead serious for once, even looking Silva in the eyes in the stare-down. The match went back and forth, and then Sakuraba even took Silva down, into his domain. Silva then of course picked Saku up and slammed him, popping his shoulder and ending the fight "prematurely". Of course Silva earned the victory, but bad luck was involved in how it ended, and it had been even until that point. In that regard the third fight wasnt that much of a reach to have. Surely we now know how that ended.

"The first loss was a surprise and raised a question if the new rule change affected the outcome."

Actually, was kindah expected since Pride 13 and the new rule concernin´ knees-to-a-downed-opponent.
This new rule literally 'suicided' SAKU G.

This is a Hendo interview from back then:

Q: The new rules permit you to sprawl to avoid the tackle and then put the knee in. This is advantageous for you isn't it?

Dan: I think the new rules are advantageous for us wrestlers. Sprawling is our specialty. From this position, landing knees is easy. So I used them. Coleman too, and got a KO [over Alan Goes]. Silva too. When I heard about the rule change, I was very much surprised.

Q: Surprised?

Dan: Before the Sakuraba vs. Silva fight, I never thought the rules would be changed like this. Because the change provided a clear advantage to Silva. Well, since the rules are changed, we will fight according to them.

 

[CPH]

A ton of heart would mean ending the match covered by blood and with multiple concussion , in this case. Tenshin undestand he cannot win and did prefer to leave the ring in his feet

Here’s what I think.

This sort of ‘exhibition’ is like a sparring session. The unwritten agreement is that you don’t go hard and typically just show some skills on the way to a ‘draw’. However, just like a sparring session, it can turn into a very real fight if one guy makes it clear that he is not there to play. This is what happened here.

It was immediately very obvious that Tenshin was throwing everything he had, and that Floyd made a switch when he saw this, and decided to just take him out.

The point is that Tenshin could easily have looked good in there for the casuals and survived to the final bell. He could have had the trolls talking about how he had ‘held his own’, ‘given Floyd problems’ instead of clinging onto the retarded idea that getting knocked down 3 times inside 2 minutes, landing no significant punches and having his corner throw in the towel was STAGED because it was actually the best sales tactic in a fight Rizin pain over 9 million for.

I’m trying to discuss this as politely as I can, but man, there is some child-like logic on display here.

 

[rob mafia]

Three knockdowns in a round = fight over

The corner's towel had nothing to do with stopping the bout.

...sure, if the three knockdown rule was in effect. which it wasn't.

 

[goodone2]

This was a fix, but Mayweather Vs Big Show was the real deal.

 

[14.09]

"The first loss was a surprise and raised a question if the new rule change affected the outcome."

Actually, was kindah expected since Pride 13 and the new rule concernin´ knees-to-a-downed-opponent.
This new rule literally 'suicided' SAKU G.

This is a Hendo interview from back then:

Q: The new rules permit you to sprawl to avoid the tackle and then put the knee in. This is advantageous for you isn't it?

Dan: I think the new rules are advantageous for us wrestlers. Sprawling is our specialty. From this position, landing knees is easy. So I used them. Coleman too, and got a KO [over Alan Goes]. Silva too. When I heard about the rule change, I was very much surprised.

Q: Surprised?

Dan: Before the Sakuraba vs. Silva fight, I never thought the rules would be changed like this. Because the change provided a clear advantage to Silva. Well, since the rules are changed, we will fight according to them.

I think we are essentially saying the same thing. It was a surprise in the sense that Sakuraba was the more highly touted fighter going in. Those who knew better, might have considered the rule change is gonna change the outcome, which was obvious after the fact.

But my main point was the second fight was very competitive, and ended to what some could describe a freak accident. I wanted to point it out, because almost everybody seems to remember it wrong and recall the trilogy as three one-sided beatdowns. The narrative goes that Pride absurdly "fed" Sakuraba to a wolf, but in reality it was justified to give Sakuraba a big chance going in to each of those fights.

 

[gono btw]

I think we are essentially saying the same thing. It was a surprise in the sense that Sakuraba was the more highly touted fighter going in. Those who knew better, might have considered the rule change is gonna change the outcome, which was obvious after the fact.

But my main point was the second fight was very competitive, and ended to what some could describe a freak accident. I wanted to point it out, because almost everybody seems to remember it wrong and recall the trilogy as three one-sided beatdowns. The narrative goes that Pride absurdly "fed" Sakuraba to a wolf, but in reality it was justified to give Sakuraba a big chance going in to each of those fights.

Helax, Im a SAKU GOAT fan.

The Wand fight was a good [OW] bet...

If I was his manager, I wouldnt have signed the Randleman contract though... or the Vitor Gracie one...
Bad match-ups...