Do Olympian wrestlers fight better against better/higher ranked opponents?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by BigMuffler, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. BigMuffler

    BigMuffler Loli is love loli is life!

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    Seem kind of like a trend...

    Cejudo looked unimpressive against Camus and that other FLW he fought before Formiga, looked great against Joe B despite loss

    McMann looked unimpressive against Murphy and Baszler, looked great against Davis and good against Tate despite loss

    DC looked not that impressive against Mir and old Anderson, looked great against Rumble and Gus and good against Jones despite loss

    Even Yoel has more impressive performances against Machida and Weidman than the likes of Brunson

    Yes some of the Olympians have bad losses against top competition too, but their best performances tend to be against top tier fighters - does it take strong opposition to bring out the maximum OLYMPIC fighting spirit?
     
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  2. mayorcrazyeyes

    mayorcrazyeyes MuralEdmond Ali

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    Yep, there are 0 other factors. You solved it.
     
  3. BigMuffler

    BigMuffler Loli is love loli is life!

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    I'm sure there are other factors but it seems like a funny trend.
     
  4. Sonny Qc

    Sonny Qc Gold Belt

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    they just seem to get better with time imo....
     
  5. dsdoubled

    dsdoubled Brown Belt

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    Its probably a coincidence. However, high level wrestlers have a very established history of peaking and looking their best at the big show, ie worlds and Olympics. Every year you will see most of the top guys in the world lose at least once at earlier tournaments. They often use these other matches to try new things, tweek preparation, and other stuff that may make for a subpar performance. Our Olympic champ Kyle Snyder won gold in Rio and has already lost a world level match since. There may be some connection between this and your theory but Id guess its unintentional. In wrestling you can afford a loss bc there is not much politics, in the UFC it costs you money.
     
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  6. Kim Jong Un

    Kim Jong Un Absolute Boss

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    Its a reflection of them being the kind of people who know exactly how to optimize development and having the elite genetics to reap the rewards. They start off getting their ass kicked but still getting along because they are still learning and relying on the wrestling. Then the rapid developments really start to show around the time they get those big step ups.
     
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  7. MMAViewer

    MMAViewer Black Belt

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    By funny trend you mean coincidence?
     
  8. Squish II

    Squish II The Squish

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    The Brunson fight was weird. Romero was slowly losing on the feet and got easliy mounted, until Romero did his typical late fight comeback. The Machida and Weidman fights were later in his career when he was more skilled. He was fighting Machinda until he felt like ending the fight imo, and getting slightly outstruck, but outwrestling Weidman. I wonder what happened to Brunson, going from a dude who patiently outworked Romero to a dude that fucking slips over himself 5+ times in one round.
     
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  9. BigMuffler

    BigMuffler Loli is love loli is life!

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    Maybe he bought into his hype and was rushing to get a cool finish.
     
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  10. ShadowOfDeath

    ShadowOfDeath Yellow Belt

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    I will discuss the Yoel case arbitrarily and because he is the most extreme. Yoel suffers from the same ill that afflicts many pure graplers in MMA. As he learns to strike and is a dominant feared wrestler, he exploits the fact his opponents tend to have a lower guard and are pulling back in the strikes ( not to expose takedowns). Maia had this fever for a time. Yoel does it more because of his age and muscle build draining his cardio.
    So against low level opposition you will find them barely scrapping a victory. against higher level opponents willing to push them they end up using their best skillset often times without planning for it. In the Yoel-Weidman fight you see him pulling back the whole time (particularly overwhelmed in the technical part of striking) and displaying glimpses of his elite wrestling when pushed in the clich or takedown.
    Ideally they would focus more on setting up their main skill, but...
    The trend seems to be 1. start as one dimensional 2. learn to strike and ignore their main skillset altogether 3. use striking to set up the grappling. just look at Maia's fights in the UFC.
    PS: control grapplers have a habit of using the minimum effort possible to dominate opponents (especially defensive opponents) so looking lackluster. Elite strikers are more likely to get KOs against weaker opposition as they will just drive through
     
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  11. Squish II

    Squish II The Squish

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    I have only seen Brunson in the Romero fight, the Hall finish and the Whittaker fight. I was suprised at his change in fighting style. The Whittaker fight was the sloppiest performance I have ever seen from a fighter. There is definitely delusion in his head if he thinks he can be a champion like that. The only guy who can slip around and get away with it is Yoel.
     
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  12. ArtemV

    ArtemV Gold Belt

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    Hurry up next Olympics, Sadulaev would have a great chance at getting UFC gold
     
  13. Squish II

    Squish II The Squish

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    Yoel's skills seem all over the place due to his fighting style. He is very good at energy conservation and has periods where he doesnt do much, like Lawler. He was slowly getting outstruck by Weidman, but I think that it was because he was conserving energy and wasn't interested in commiting too much to the standup. He obviously believes that he can pull off a comeback win in the final round, and who can blame him. This calmness is going to be a bad idea if he wants to stay at the top imo. He hides how good he is and doesn't fight to his potential the whole fight because he doesn't have the cardio to keep it up. I think he prefers the standup because he can pace himself better than if he was in someone's guard. How would he respond to someone with an offensive guard like Condits?

    Look at the Machida fight. Machida was slightly outstriking him, but Yoel could go strike for strike with him perfectly fine, because he didn't feel like he was in any danger. He was having way more success than Machida with the hands and tagged him good plenty of times. When he wanted to fight at his pace, not Machida's, he would explode, just look at his blitz at the end of the 2nd round. In the third, Machida was starting to land more and more kicks to his body and especially legs, so he decided to take him down and end it.

    As a big fan of his, I admit that he is one of the dirtiest fighters in the cage. Don't let the language barrier fool you, I reckon that he has extremely good fight iq, knows how and when to blitz, or cheat. In the Jacare fight, he is gassed, but then suddenly muslces Jacare against the cage, blocks his hand from the referee's view, grabs the cage and gets on top of Jacare. The gyfcat got removed though so i can't post it.
     
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  14. skylolow

    skylolow Silver Belt

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    Strictly speaking from an amateur wrestling background I can say wrestlers over the course of there career do get up for certain matches just like a lot of teams do in other sports. Your training is much more focused when going against opponents you deem as a threat.

    I don't really think any of this has to do with Olympian athletes only, its more general than that.
     
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  15. Halestorm

    Halestorm White Belt

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    Experienced wrestlers period . As a whole former Olympian, collegiate, and even experienced ,successful high school wrestlers enter the sport with an advantage over all other styles (as a whole). The sport of Wrestling prepares you in a way that is unmatched by any other form of competition outside of mma. The competition , the training, the discipline, and most of all the attitude and mentality it creates, plus it gives you the best feel for where most street fights end up . On the ground. In most cases not all, a fighter is far better suited to come into the sport as an experienced wrestler and develop his/or her striking and BJJ than any other type of martial artist can develop his/or her wrestling game. Wrestlers with years of experience have a feel for handling another human being that cannot be taught in a short amount of time. It takes a ridiculous amount of mat time to gain that kind of feel plus wrestlers develop the highest level of conditioning you can achieve. The best way for a stand up fighter to not be exposed by lack of wrestling experience is to master the art of avoiding being taken down to the floor like McGregor seems to have done . Another example of a fighter who did this despite his back round in wrestling was Chuck Liddell. He wanted to stand and bang because he was such a powerful and skilled striker and a lot of his opponents were at least equal ground fighters So IMO when wrestlers fight against top tier opponents they simplify their game and make it a grind it out style fight . The first examples that come to mind are Alvarez vs Pettis and Mendez vs McGregor. McGregor wasn't what he is now at defending the take down. I'm a huge Conor fan and I think he could go down as the GOAT but at that time ,had Mendez had a full camp with the training and conditioning he was accustomed to, I believe he would have beat McGregor. He gassed out and stood toe to toe with Conor and got KO'ed but he was taking Conor down at will and dominating him on the ground. Which is why I still believe a fight at 145 between Frankie Edgar and Conor would be an extremely tight matchup. Frankie has the footwork and head movement to possibly avoid the big left of Conor until he could get Conor to the floor. IF he could get Conor to the floor , but once Conor was on his back I don't think he would have the conditioning to get back up and make it a stand up fight. I still would pick Conor because of the take down defense he has developed and him being the best striker in the world but it wouldn't surprise me is Edgar won a 5 round fight against Conor.
     
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  16. ShadowOfDeath

    ShadowOfDeath Yellow Belt

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    I like your take on an offensive guard ala Condit, that could be problematic for him.
    He is a seasoned competitor after all and unfortunately the translations are often inaccurate and lack expression (I am a spanish speaker).
    A younger Yoel would have been impossible to stop for most, we can only imagine a prime Yoel vs Silva. If I had to guess a lot of his cheating antics have to do with his stamina limitations, which of course does not make it right.
    Ultimately he will most likely defeat Bisping and lets wait for a Jacare rematch or Rockhold.
    Romero is an elite athlete, past his physical prime yet with a lot of skill (sad for his cheating). Its a testament to his fight IQ and skill that he can draw the fight into late rounds and use his remaining energy then, which most could not even attempt.
     
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  17. Squish II

    Squish II The Squish

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    Condit's style of guard is the one I mentioned, because he forces people to work by attacking them if they don't. He busted GSP's face from the bottom, and nearly caught him in a few submissions. That sort of guard you can't rest in or else you get outworked or caught.

    People like Rockhold, Jacare and Gegard have active and dangerous guards, and I think that Romero likes to stay on his feet because he has more options there. He probably feels safer since he has lots of factors that give him pretty decent striking defence. He has his insane speed, can counter takedown attempts, can slow down people with feints, and isn't afraid to eat some shots while waiting for the right moment to strike.

    As a big fan of his, I will still acknowledge his cheating. It won him the Jacare fight. You have the right idea in that if he didn't have cardio problems he wouldn't cheat, since every instance can be tied to him wanting to recover. I respect the fact that the nature of his cheating seems to be mainly about buying time, not intentionally hurting his opponent by poking their eyes or kicking them in the balls. I have no idea whether or not that ball punch he did against Brunson was intentional or not, but he didn't seem tired so I give him the benefit of the doubt. The beatdowns that he puts on opponents due to recovery time don't go well with people though.

    Joanna rakes her opponents eyes with her fingers, I have seen Tate grab the fence while the referee was on the other side. Bisping at the end of the 2nd round in the Henderson fight was throwing a bunch of small shots at the back of Dan's head before the round ended. Lots of fighters cheat, it's the nature of their cheating that I judge. For example, Kongo blatantly kneed Crocop in the balls multiple times, and the Cain fight is what made me me want to see Kongo get brain damage. I counted him intentionally elbowing the back of Cains head at least 4 times in the first round, and he probably did it more in the fight. He got to stand up by grabbing the fence in the 3rd round and nearly finished Cain. What a piece of shit elbowing people in the back of the head.
     
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  18. ShadowOfDeath

    ShadowOfDeath Yellow Belt

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    Fair, still doesn't make it right, despite itd be foolish to think he is the only one who does it. The active guard would be horrible for Yoel, as it would force constant movement. I'd say a lot of his picking the right moment is directly related to his cardio, he simply cannot afford the relentless pace and level changes. The guy is 39 and heavily built, which is natural. So a lot of his pulling back is not as much of an Anderson Silva picking the shots, but a powerful fighter with a great arsenal, but limited fuel, therefore a need for energy conservation. It tells you how good he is that in those circumstances he can do it.
    Bringing out Rockhold was in terms of fighting one of the best in the division whom also picks his shots a lot. I can hardly see Luke trying to rush the fight as Weidman did.
    Ya veremos si Yoel es el mejor, pero casi seguro que sera campeon.
     
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  19. Squish II

    Squish II The Squish

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    @ShadowOfDeath
    "Ya veremos si Yoel es el mejor, pero casi seguro que sera campeon."

    "We'll see if Yoel is the best, but will almost certainly be champion." Most definitely. If he manages to win a Jacare rematch, and rack up a few more wins he is one of the middleweight greats imo.


    You are right in that he isn't at the skill level offensively or defensively where he can dodge most offense and counter, like Aldo (Frankie fight) or Silva. I heard that Romero doesn't know his actual age, so he would most likely be younger than the official one. He has the best cardio management in mma.

    Rockhold has a long reach and could slow Romero down with kicks. Weidman is slower than Yoel but was out kicking Rockhold in the 3rd round until he attempted the spinning kick of doom. They say that Rockhold has bad boxing. Kennedy is another mw with terrible boxing, but okay kicks. Against Romero, the only thing that Tim landed of note until the glove grab were body teeps. I do think that against Rockhold, he will not pace himself early on until he feels comfortable enough too, since while he was winning against Kennedy, he was also gassing out from body shots, so stoolgate happened. I think that Yoel takes it due to speed.

    One thing I missed was that Yoel threw a shot to the back of Chris' head during the finish. You will notice that when a fighter tries to finish a fight they may throw a few shots to the back of their opponents head, and it's not like the referee is going to call a timeout. Lots of fighters do this, such as Lombard and Hendo. I forgive Yoel for it though, because I am a fanboy, and because aside from his beatdowns, the roids, and the cheating, he is extremely kind to everyone. I loved it when he told the crowd to clap for Weidman and got dissapointed when they didn't. His translator, his mannerisims and antics are extremely entertaining and he has an underrated personality. I think I like him a tiny bit more for his personality than his fighting, since I started rooting for him after his No For Gay Jesus speech. I mention Lombard alot on these forums but I don't actually like the guy at all. I admire him as a fighter and his physique, but I hate gym bullies. I have stopped rooting for Overeem, Lombard, and Story because of that.
     
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  20. Mattitude V1

    Mattitude V1 WAR CONDIT

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    In most cases TS mentioned it's simply a factor of these guys being more well rounded by the time they face elite competition.
     
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