Do Cardio, keep your Gainz

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by KnightTemplar, Aug 15, 2015.

  1. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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  2. Flash_Monsta

    Flash_Monsta Black Belt

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    cardio's 4 gayz
     
  3. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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    Reported for Homophobia:icon_chee
     
  4. ironwolf

    ironwolf Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    Not doing cardio is gayer.
     
  5. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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    This guy gets it.:cool:

    Cardio should be viewed in much the same way Hypertrophy work is. Jogging a couple of miles, twice a week, won't make you skinny-fat. Anymore than doing a few sets of Curls will make you look like one of those Mr Olympia freaks.
     
  6. Canned Tuna

    Canned Tuna Silver Belt

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    Was not homophobic.

    Gays love cardio
     
  7. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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    Pretty sure Gay's Lift too...
     
  8. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    I think if you're still at a surplus and lifting heavy you'll still make gains. Nothing wrong with 3-5k a couple of times a week.
     
  9. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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    This. The article specifically states that LISS should be slow and easy. You're doing just enough to improve and maintain cardiovascular fitness without compromising your main training.
     
  10. JimRussel

    JimRussel Brown Belt

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    I think the most interesting part of the article was the fact it was on T-Nation and didn't contain a single supplement plug.
     
  11. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    I don't think it really says anything too different than your usual article on conditioning for lifters. Which is unfortunate. What I'd rather see is an article that actually summarizes the science on the topic, and makes some training suggestions based on that.
     
  12. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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    Most of the articles that are written on this subject seem to emphasize HIIT, for example Hill Sprints or Prowler work, over LISS.

    What's your personal view on LISS for Strength Athletes, Tosa?
     
  13. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    I think there's a cultural dislike of cardio, especially steady state, among strength athletes. I know I'll make jokes about it at the gym, even though I do conditioning regularly.

    LISS offers some specific benefits to strength athletes. First, during a heavy lift, blood pressure and heart rate skyrocket. This isn't as much of an issue for younger/lighter athletes, but for older/heavier athletes, it means that LISS better prepares their cardiovascular system to handle this stress.

    Second, LISS stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system, which, to simplify, is the one that relaxes you, bringing things like HR down, slowing the release of adrenaline, etc. Whereas lifting stimulates the sympathetic nervous system, which increases HR, increases release of adrenaline, Ie. the fight-or-flight response. So the inclusion of LISS improves recovery, reducing overall stress.

    Third, all energy produced by the body ultimately comes from aerobic metabolism. Ie. recovery of the anaerobic energy systems is dependant on the aerobic energy system. Because of this VO2max is strongly correlated with recovery between bouts of high intensity exercise. In other words, if you're in better aerobic condition, you can recover better between sets.

    However, there are also potential downsides. LISS can stimulate adaptation in the muscle (Ie. peripheral adaptation) as well as the cardiovascular system, towards being better at endurance, rather than strength & power. The most important factor in minimizing these adaptation is keeping in mind duration relative to intensity - so you want to do LISS long enough that you get the benefits to the cardiovascular system and parasympathetic nervous system, but not so long as you stimulate much in the way of peripheral adaptation. So at a typical LISS intensity, you'd want to stay between 20 and 30 minutes.

    Next, you conditioning that involves greater ROMs and higher velocity contractions may interfere with strength adaptations less. Eg. cycling with lower resistance, higher RPM, is better than cycling at a higher resistance, lower RPM, which in turn is better than jogging, because of the greater ROM. Although this is an area where more research is needed, IMO.

    All that said, I think conditioning for strength athletes should be based on need. Look at basic markers of cardiovascular health, like resting HR, HR recovery, blood pressure, VO2max, and whether they are in a normal range for someone who is healthy and active. I can't find VO2max data for powerlifters, but for weightlifters it's typically between 40 and 50 ml/min/kg, which is lower than most other athletes, but it's healthy, maybe even "fit", if that word means anything. I'd expect that for powerlifting, you might actually want a VO2max slightly higher than for weightlifting, since the lifts are more metabolically taxing, and slightly more reps per set are often done.

    All of which ignores strongman, but since conditioning is very significant in strongman, that'd be a whole other thing. Also ignoring HIIT, which is relevant to strength athletes, but I've written enough for now.
     
  14. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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    Excellent post, Tosa. Thank you.:cool:

    When you feel ready, I would be very interested in your views on HIIT.
     
  15. Dinamita95

    Dinamita95 White Belt

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    Dat knowledge
     
  16. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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    Yup, Tosa dropping the Knowledge Bombs up in here.
     
  17. Sgt Smith

    Sgt Smith Bassed God

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    Informative post, Tosa. I enjoy cardio activities too much to cut them from my training routine. I also feel much better in general when conditioning is consistent. Then again, I'm not a competing strength athlete.
     
  18. oyaji poi

    oyaji poi oyaji belt

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    Post of the year. Nice work.
     
  19. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    Whereas LISS work is very different from lifting, HIIT work can be fairly similar, with regards to the energy systems. Which would be especially true when doing some kind of volume work with timed rests between sets. Which means that HIIT work can either be beneficial, redundant, or detrimental, depending on the individual and programming.

    It's often said that the similarity between HIIT and lifting means there are less competing adaptations. However, the greater overlap between HIIT and lifting can actually result in competing adaptations. They both activate higher threshold muscle fibres - the ones most significant to producing large amount of force, but HIIT can provide stimulus that shifts those fibres towards anaerobic endurance, rather than strength/power (Whereas LISS doesn't activate higher threshold muscle fibres in the first place). The best way to avoid this would be to err on the side of shorter work periods, and longer rest periods. As a general guideline, you'd be looking for minimal decline in performance during a work period, and from the first work period to the last.

    Studies examining HIIT protocols have shown benefit from relatively modest protocols - recovery periods up to nearly 10x the length of work periods, showing VO2max improvement. Now, for a highly conditioned individual - Eg. a fighter, or endurance athlete - more intense work would be needed, but for a lifter, the prudent choice would be to follow a more conservative HIIT protocol with regards to recovery time, total volume and frequency, at least initially. Peak intensity could still be very high or all out.

    Unlike LISS, HIIT stimulates the sympathetic nervous system. Which means that instead of improving recovery by stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system, it adds additional stress on top of the stress from lifting, in addition to it being more demanding in other ways. So there's another reason to be conservative with HIIT, especially if someone doesn't have a high level of conditioning to begin with.

    There are some specific benefits of HIIT work - improved glucose regulation and insulin sensitivity is a big one, as well as some possible metabolic benefits. There's actually research being done with appropriately programmed HIIT for individuals with various diseases, including cardiovascular disease and cancer, that shows health benefits. While that's a bit of a tangent, the point is that there are health benefits to high intensity conditioning, even if there may not be performance benefits. Although some/most/all of those benefits could potentially be replicated with a combination of LISS and appropriately programmed lifting. I don't think the research can really give a definitive answer in that regard, at least not yet.

    I think there's also tendency to oversimplify HIIT - Ie. the just do something hard, rest repeat, approach. Depending on intensity and work/rest periods, HIIT work can target the lactate energy system, VO2max, or ATP/PC system. All of which have different physiological effects. Which is covered quite well in the FAQ, aside from, I think, VO2max intervals (Which are fairly straightforward - intervals done at approximately VO2max, usually between 30s and 2 minutes. Which is a potent means of improving VO2max). So I'm not going to reiterate it here.

    Also, some of the effects of HIIT are specific to the muscles involved. Which is also true of LISS, but a lifter will be mostly interested in the LISS effects that don't involve the muscles. So if we're interested in improving the anaerobic energy systems, it's important to actually use the appropriate musculature.

    I think HIIT would definitely be useful, in some form, for a strongman competitor. But for a weightlifter or powerlifter, it'd have to be based on the individual need.
     
  20. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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    The best Posts on F13 this year. By orders of magnitude. They should be added to the FAQ's. :cool:

    And speaking of questions: Tosa, regarding the methods used for HIIT, are some more efficient than others? You mentioned being conservative with HIIT, especially if one does not have a decent level of conditioning at the start. Does that mean something like HIIT on a Stationary Bike would be a better option than Hill Sprints? The Bikes at my Gym, for example, have programmed Interval Training sessions, where one works at high intensity for 2 minutes, then "rests" for 3 at a lower intensity. These definitely feel easier to me than Hill Sprints or even Incline Sprints on the Treadmill.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015

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