1. We now have a new forum called Fantasy Matchup Discussion. Access it here

Dirty Tactics While Training

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by vitor3000, Jan 13, 2006.

  1. vitor3000

    vitor3000 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    1
    What are your thoughts on dirty tactics while training such as pulling fingers, grinding of the elbow on the face and so on?
    Personally, I hate that shit, but than again I must not be used to em as other people cuz ima noob.
     
  2. Guards

    Guards Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    887
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    I tend to believe that the people who use 'dirty' tactics while training are the people you should avoid training with. Their mentality even in training is not to improve their technique, even through defeat. Their mentality tends to be 'Victory at all costs', and the dirty fighters are the ones you can almost guarantee become the most offended or disturbed by a loss.

    There are some legitimate tactics that 'feel' dirty sometimes though. These should be brought to the attention of your opponent if you are uncomfortable with accepting their application. In wrestling, Judo, Jiu-jitsu, etc. one of the common techniques is to apply heavy leverage and weight from a top-position to gain or maintain dominance. In some cases, this includes using your forehead/cheekbone/shoulder as weight, and can be quite uncomfortable to the receiver, especially if they have other minor injuries from training(a bruise on the cheek can be aggravated quite a bit by someone levering their forehead on your cheekbone with most of their bodyweight)
     
  3. fightme

    fightme Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    990
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some things are more "dirty" than others. Some are simply unpleasant.

    === Not Dirty(but unpleasant) ===
    1.) Digging elbows into inner thigh is
    2.) Using your gut(if you are a fat guy) to smother. Personally I think this is hella weak because it requires no technique.
    3.) Knee on belly


    === Borderline(kinda rude) ===
    1.) Driving thumb knuckle down jawline to open up choke


    === Dirty ===
    1.) Bending fingers
    2.) Forearm against nose to open up choke
    3.) Throwing elbows
     
  4. Foppa21

    Foppa21 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2002
    Messages:
    5,501
    Likes Received:
    660
    Knee on belly? THat's a position. Although as a smaller guy most in my club don't use it against me or don't apply full weight. But it's legit as then come IMO.

    Elbows to inner thigh is also not popular (we're not supposed to use them in training it demonstrates "a lack of technique"). But sometimes we posture with elbows in and it's pretty natural to drive the elbow in a bit. But no full on rub in there to open up the guard with no posturing or any other technique demonstrated.
     
  5. pinecone

    pinecone White Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    I personally think that if someone has your back they ought to do what they feel they need to do to get you to give up the choke (running the thumb donw the neck, for arm across the nose, ect). If you don't like having these things done to you then you should give up the choke - its a choice. How else are are supposed to learn to make people give up the chokes in tournaments if you never do the nastly stuff in practice. That said, using these tactics for no purpose, other than to cause discomfort, seems mean and inappropriate for trainning.

    Pinecone
     
  6. Flounder

    Flounder Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,863
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pasadena, MD
    the elbow in thigh is a guard pass I've been shown. I wouldn't call that dirty
     
  7. blanko

    blanko Guest

    the elbow in thigh is a guard opening pass and a legit move.
     
  8. Matt Thornton

    Matt Thornton Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    I started off with wrestling so it's just natural for me to make guys extremely uncomfortable with things like crossfaces and posting my weight on my forearms or whatever. I make sure that I don't open myelf up for armbars of course. But when I'm on top, I generally make it a pretty uncomfortable experience. I don't hurt people, but it's just part of the game. It's how we practice at wrestling.
     
  9. pitviper259

    pitviper259 Guest

    he said its not dirty, but rather unpleasant which it is
     
  10. Foolkiller

    Foolkiller You have meddled with the primal forces of nature!

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    Messages:
    8,303
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Part of the only one holistic system of systems
    It is not that unpleasant when you get used to the pain.
     
  11. bdweezil6998

    bdweezil6998 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    buffalo, ny
    as far as some of the other dirty tactics...let them know you don't like it and if they choose to continue, you'll use the testicular claw move that you saw on ECW.
     
  12. Mestizo

    Mestizo Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2005
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    The Boonies, NH
    Amen to that.
     
  13. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,973
    Likes Received:
    13
    AH yes...
    Learning to love the pain.
    True.
     
  14. GracieStudent

    GracieStudent Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    NYC
    my fingers still hurt!
     
  15. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,973
    Likes Received:
    13
    Bottom line: dirty tactics are for those who are lacking in clean technique...
     
  16. Guards

    Guards Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    887
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Arizona

    I think that's about as funny as it is obvious if you keep your mind open. An excellent way to put it, but the concept is humorous. It's like saying the rain isn't unpleasant after you get yourself soaked. The cold water isn't that bad, I'm already numb!

    Don't worry about pain, it's only unpleasant until you become accustomed to it. Then the pain is normal. :icon_twis
     
  17. S.D.Force

    S.D.Force Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    1
    sad to hear so many people shying away from legal but unorthodox tactics, and choosing to call them "dirty"..... kind of funny that submission grappling in particular is geared toward causing so much pain so as to make a person submit, or to choke the life nearly out of them....

    This issue is simple. Obviously there are tactics that are illegal in the sub grappling realm. We all know what they are. There are lots of unorthodox things that can be used to make people uncomfortable enough to open up the sub we are looking for that will cause a hell of a lot more pain and danger for the most part. And some people don't call that "clean technique"....funny.

    If you don't practice these techniques in practice when will you learn to perfect them? In tournaments?....sorry, it'll be a little late for working on them at that point.

    There is also a way to use certain unorthodox techniques that is VERY abrasive and disrespectful, but still within the rules. For the most part, unless you are training at 100% with prior consent to do so, and you know your partner, then you usually won't want to apply things in a disrespectful or mean manner.

    There is a technique is use in competition to open the guard that is very violent and scary for the opponent to experience. Nobody is expecting it and it happens quickly...it's not something i regularly pull out in practice, but at times if i've asked a partner to just go very lightly b/c i'm sore, and they proceed to go full speed and power trying tear into subs, then yes i will start getting a little nasty.

    learn unorthodox techniques, and use them with good common sense. Realizing that this is submission grappling. stop listening to these BJJ only guys who believe that you shouldn't have to barely exert any effort if you are using "proper" technique and have set everything up the right way. Reality against a good fighter is almost never like that.
     
  18. GracieStudent

    GracieStudent Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    NYC
    lotta good points. and it's better to know then to not know 4 sure. hey what's that move u talkin bout? u know, the one from the tournaments that is violent and scary? don't leave us hanging..
     
  19. S.D.Force

    S.D.Force Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    1
    very hard to explain the move. And in general you really can't practice it comfortably. But if you don't have a lot of speed, strength and power it won't work well. It's also a timing thing. I kind of adapted it to my body and strengths as some of the things that work for others don't work for me.

    i'll give you the basics but it won't really do it justice unless you see it. There is also small variations that can be implemented as well to affect different results. The basic premise is a jamming of your palms/hands into the guys neck powering it into the mat, all done at the same time you tripod out of his closed guard that he has pulled you tightly into. Just as soon as the timing is right and his grip loosens b/c he doesn't feel you will posture up very well. you are up on your tip toes with hands jamming a gagging opponent into the mat. From here his guard is usually open somewhat, and if not, you can use certain opening techniques from this position.

    like i said though, it's hard to practice, timing is involved, and it's done very fast with agressive power and fire in your eyes. If you are efficient, and timely, your effort will pay off.

    Very unpleasant to experience, and it's not really even something you can prepare a training partner for. During the course of rolling with some jackass who is being a prick, you may be able to pull it out at times.
     
  20. Jiu-Jitsu Cop

    Jiu-Jitsu Cop Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    In Socal.
    I had a wrestler use what sounds like a similar technique on me. He grabbed my throat and used his weight to push down on my throat to force open my guard. It really sucked but I am glad he did this to me in practice before I learned it on the street.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.