Dirty Holt, please give your opinions on this judo takedown

What exactly are you curious about? It works well as a counter to a bad forward throw in Judo, or as a direct attack off a forward throw fake. Doesn't work so well without the gi grips. I've won a match or two with it.
 
Uchi Mata said:
What exactly are you curious about? It works well as a counter to a bad forward throw in Judo, or as a direct attack off a forward throw fake. Doesn't work so well without the gi grips. I've won a match or two with it.
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All what Uchi said but I have to add is the favourite throw for newbies or fat stocky guys , don
 
It works well with a fake hip throw twitch.

If you're using it as a counter then 9/10 times you're better off using ura nage IMO.

I'm also pretty sure holt is a strictly no gi guy so it's likely he hasn't had much exposure to tani otoshi.
 
I do not like this takedown at all and I will tell you why:

In wrestling, during a dual meet of 10-14 matches, you will see this position come up at minimum, 20 times. From referees position (ground wrestling) when a guy stands up, the top man must release him or return him, so you can see why this move is an option for this position.

I have seen in my life at least 3 people get their meniscus blown out from this move. I have had my meniscus torn from this move as well. I instruct my wrestlers that I coach that this move is off limits in practice.

What usually will happen is the guy in front will counter and turn, and the guy in back is dropping and going do or die style and must also turn or he will get taken down. This causes a lot of rotary torque, all being placed on the knee.

In addition, if the guy in front counters, you are fucked. I see kids try this all the time, get countered, then are square on their ass with no way to scramble out.

That being said, I have seen this guys videos before and he shows very legit stuff, but I do not like this move at all.
 
Dirty Holt said:
I do not like this takedown at all and I will tell you why:

In wrestling, during a dual meet of 10-14 matches, you will see this position come up at minimum, 20 times. From referees position (ground wrestling) when a guy stands up, the top man must release him or return him, so you can see why this move is an option for this position.

I have seen in my life at least 3 people get their meniscus blown out from this move. I have had my meniscus torn from this move as well. I instruct my wrestlers that I coach that this move is off limits in practice.

What usually will happen is the guy in front will counter and turn, and the guy in back is dropping and going do or die style and must also turn or he will get taken down. This causes a lot of rotary torque, all being placed on the knee.

In addition, if the guy in front counters, you are fucked. I see kids try this all the time, get countered, then are square on their ass with no way to scramble out.

That being said, I have seen this guys videos before and he shows very legit stuff, but I do not like this move at all.
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Generally when you see it in Judo, people don't drop all the way to the ground. It's more like this:

[YT]F1qNiAiAZCs[/YT]

And I too have seen a fair number of injuries from it. Unfortunately it's becoming more popular as a counter again in Judo since the superior leg grabbing counter options have been eliminated.
 
Dirty Holt said:
I do not like this takedown at all and I will tell you why:

In wrestling, during a dual meet of 10-14 matches, you will see this position come up at minimum, 20 times. From referees position (ground wrestling) when a guy stands up, the top man must release him or return him, so you can see why this move is an option for this position.

I have seen in my life at least 3 people get their meniscus blown out from this move. I have had my meniscus torn from this move as well. I instruct my wrestlers that I coach that this move is off limits in practice.

What usually will happen is the guy in front will counter and turn, and the guy in back is dropping and going do or die style and must also turn or he will get taken down. This causes a lot of rotary torque, all being placed on the knee.

In addition, if the guy in front counters, you are fucked. I see kids try this all the time, get countered, then are square on their ass with no way to scramble out.

That being said, I have seen this guys videos before and he shows very legit stuff, but I do not like this move at all.
Click to expand...

I agree, I torqued my knee once doing this. My fault for being lazy and not putting in the extra effort on a mat return. Like Holt said, legit technique...just inherently risky
 
I use it with a fake hip throw like in Uchi video, its also a newbie trap where people will cling to it and never move forward.

I actually got a lot of insight about these clutch moves and traps that make you plateau and lose motivation on a videogame developer video.

[YT]EitZRLt2G3w[/YT]
 
Yeah i also agree that it can lead to pretty nasty injuries

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I've gotten a complete knee dislocation (patella in the back of the knee, pointing almost 180deg wrong) and another almost-as-bad dislocation from green and brown belts who liked this move way too much and yet didn't have a good sense of when to use it.

Not a fan. But I think I might just have a grudge.
 
Dirty Holt said:
I do not like this takedown at all and I will tell you why:

In wrestling, during a dual meet of 10-14 matches, you will see this position come up at minimum, 20 times. From referees position (ground wrestling) when a guy stands up, the top man must release him or return him, so you can see why this move is an option for this position.

I have seen in my life at least 3 people get their meniscus blown out from this move. I have had my meniscus torn from this move as well. I instruct my wrestlers that I coach that this move is off limits in practice.

What usually will happen is the guy in front will counter and turn, and the guy in back is dropping and going do or die style and must also turn or he will get taken down. This causes a lot of rotary torque, all being placed on the knee.

In addition, if the guy in front counters, you are fucked. I see kids try this all the time, get countered, then are square on their ass with no way to scramble out.

That being said, I have seen this guys videos before and he shows very legit stuff, but I do not like this move at all.
Click to expand...

Off-topic but one dual we had only 3 matches lol.
 
Rod1 said:
I use it with a fake hip throw like in Uchi video, its also a newbie trap where people will cling to it and never move forward.

I actually got a lot of insight about these clutch moves and traps that make you plateau and lose motivation on a videogame developer video.

[YT]EitZRLt2G3w[/YT]
Click to expand...

That video was very cool!
 
Dirty Holt said:
I do not like this takedown at all and I will tell you why:

I have seen in my life at least 3 people get their meniscus blown out from this move. I have had my meniscus torn from this move as well. I instruct my wrestlers that I coach that this move is off limits in practice.

What usually will happen is the guy in front will counter and turn, and the guy in back is dropping and going do or die style and must also turn or he will get taken down. This causes a lot of rotary torque, all being placed on the knee.
Click to expand...

what causes people's knees to get blown out from here? And in more cases with meniscus injuries, does the injury happen more to the guy doing the takedown or the guy receiving?

Also for the counter you speak of, is it when the guy turns towards the outstretched leg or the supporting leg (not tripping for the TD) that places such torque on the knee?

From the videos and what people are speaking of, it sounds like both parties can get injured from this
 
BJJ Coffee Drinker said:
what causes people's knees to get blown out from here? And in more cases with meniscus injuries, does the injury happen more to the guy doing the takedown or the guy receiving?

Also for the counter you speak of, is it when the guy turns towards the outstretched leg or the supporting leg (not tripping for the TD) that places such torque on the knee?

From the videos and what people are speaking of, it sounds like both parties can get injured from this
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I have never seen someone get injured while hitting this move, only from being on the receiving end.

The reason it blows out ACL's and Meniscus is because the leg is planted, and the guy hitting the move is jumping with full body weight into a rotary twist where the leg under attack cannot pivot or move.
 
Dirty Holt said:
I have never seen someone get injured while hitting this move, only from being on the receiving end.

The reason it blows out ACL's and Meniscus is because the leg is planted, and the guy hitting the move is jumping with full body weight into a rotary twist where the leg under attack cannot pivot or move.
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I see, thanks for clearing that up. What would you recommend as the safest thing to do for the guy receiving the takedown if its being done to you?

Also, which leg, the leg that is closer to the person doing the takedown or is it the farther one? I imagine the closer leg is going to take more of the force but I can also see the far leg taking some of it too
 
One of the problem for this throw in our club is that we do not practice sacrifice throws much. As a result when I used Tani Otoshi it was hard unexpected landing for the partner. I do not use it anymore, unless I can make it nice and slow.
 
Holt has wrestled at a higher level than i, but i have yet to see any injuries from it in my personal experience (i've seen more from low singles where the shoulder hits near a knee). I'm wondering if this is something that occurs at a higher level or if my experiences are just vastly different coming from a hybrid of Freestyle/Judo?
 
I use it, but I agree it's dangerous (I've been injured by it once before). In fact reading all this I'm thinking I should reconsider and just stop using it altogether.
 
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