Differences between Wrestling and BJJ?

[redaxe]

So I understand they're both grappling martial arts and that they developed in different parts of the world.

How do they differ in terms of their philosophy about grappling and the particular techniques that are used?

What would an fight look like between a pure wrestler and a pure BJJ artist?

Wrestling = take your opponent down and turn him over to put his shoulders on the mat

BJJ = achieve submission by choke or joint lock, or display positional dominance by getting past his legs (aka "guard") and controlling his upper body.

As for your second question...

 

[fourfif**]

So now you're smarter than Ricardo Arona?

Fuck outa here nerd. I know you've experienced getting raped by a good wrestler or judoka if you haven't then you need to get around a little more.

 

[fourfif**]

This is retarded. Alot of BJJ is about preventing people from slamming you. A proper triangle should prevent this and in a worst case scenario you can just LET GO.


In a street fight a BJJ can just lay on his back and wait for the wrestler to engage and lose.

Also stop trolling, you know your argument is retarded, obviously wrestlers with no submission experience or knowledge will lose against a pure BJJ guy on the ground, probably even with your street rules. In guard hed probably triangle himself ffs....(Unless he watched lethal weapon).

And also control, and a propensity for establishing basically top position.

let's not forget points for high amplitude throws and slams (fs/Greco)

 

[newerest]

And also control, and a propensity for establishing basically top position.

let's not forget points for high amplitude throws and slams (fs/Greco)

5 pount throws on concrete are scary. like...severe lawsuit, stuff

 

[dazed863]

BJJ > wrestling

from wiki here are the ADCC placement results from 1998 to now broken down by style (it's late i should have been in bed two hours ago so i probably miscounted a few)

JJ - 123
Hybrid - 16
Wrestling - 13
Other - 6

BJJ wins fights

 

[Falufalump]

Wrestling = take your opponent down and turn him over to put his shoulders on the mat

BJJ = achieve submission by choke or joint lock, or display positional dominance by getting past his legs (aka "guard") and controlling his upper body.

As for your second question...

Redaxe, that is one of the best gif's of all time. I mean, really, the best evar.

 

[Butler]

The problem with BJJ against a wrestler is that BJJ views the closed guard as a neutral position. That's fine in a grappling contest, but with fists and elbows coming towards your face, being on your back against a wrestler is hardly a neutral position.

Sure, you can submit a guy off your back, but how much damage are you going to take in the process? What if you never get the sub? BJJ guys always talk about "position before submission" and they're right, but they would have more success if they didn't just lay down and pretend that the guard is a neutral position. Use your guard to sweep, then pass, then submit. That's when BJJ beats wrestling.

That's funny, 'cus I was taught that it's only neutral in a grappling scenario, and specifically that it isn't in an MMA/self defense situation...

 

[Connoisseur]

Wrestling is the sport of taking the opponent down & pinning them. Freestyle rules emphasize/ allow throws and slams, Folkstyle stresses positional control, Greco only allows upper- body takedowns (meaning no leg attacks).

Jits (at least in competition) is the art of groundwork, especially submissions. Positional control and submissions are placed at a premium. Takedowns are more about getting the fight to the ground and attaining good position, and guard pulls are something you see in Jits but not wrestling.

In wrestling, you don't want to be on your back at all, in BJJ being on your back is often fine.

As for the whole BJJ vs. Wrestling in a streetfight argument, Wrestling will give you the ability to exert control, Jits will give you the ability to submit & control your opponent.

 

[aunshi189]

BJJ > wrestling

from wiki here are the ADCC placement results from 1998 to now broken down by style (it's late i should have been in bed two hours ago so i probably miscounted a few)

JJ - 123
Hybrid - 16
Wrestling - 13
Other - 6

BJJ wins fights

And what were the totals of each style that entered? Those numbers mean nothing unless hundreds of wrestlers competed and failed.

Besides nowadays I think most people are 'hybrid'

And finally the concept of a 'fight' not a MMA match has too many intangibles to be able to say style x will always beat style y.
A Good grappler will beat a slightly less good grappler, who cares about styles?

 

[knoxpk]

BJJ > wrestling

from wiki here are the ADCC placement results from 1998 to now broken down by style (it's late i should have been in bed two hours ago so i probably miscounted a few)

JJ - 123
Hybrid - 16
Wrestling - 13
Other - 6

BJJ wins fights

This is a stat in a submission grappling match. I can agree that most of the time a submission grappler will beat a non submission grappler in a submission grappling match. Just like it is likely that a tennis player will beat a baseball player in tennis.

I am not sure if they keep the stats anymore since everyone crosstrains but sherdog used to keep fight stat and in MMA (as close as we get to real fighting) wrestlers and BJJ guys were pretty even up in W's and L's.

It is a toss up to be honest in real life. There is an assumption that the wrestler is going to try to gently take you down, pass guard and what not. That is not always the case.
What if the wrestler is named Chuck Lidell? Or Rampage? these types of guys use wrestling to nullify takedowns and throw hands.
Of course there is the slam issue as well as potential GnP, but on the mat I do give the BJJ guy and edge in finishing the fight.

Really silly responses IMO because around the same time Royce was choking out Severn Kerr was mangling Gurgels grill. So even then with little cross training the results were mixed.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

OK so that's one thing I learned.

Besides a lack of submissions in wrestling, both arts are basically just after getting a dominant position...

Do practitioners of those arts basically just do the same sorts of 'moves' but call them different names?

No, there are many differences. Both include wrestling takedowns, but wrestlers will actually be good at them. A BJJ practitioner can take down your average untrained opponent, or a striker, but not a wrestler. And aside from the submissions, once you're on the ground, the positioning is much different. Wrestlers are always trying to be face down when in bottom position to get back to the feet. BJJ practitioners rely on the guard, and are taught never to give up their back. So if you're talking pure sport wrestling and pure BJJ, absent any other cross training, the positional philosophy on the ground is completely different.

They are very very different sports. However nowadays if you're watching MMA, it's very rare to see someone with a base in one that isn't heavily cross-training in the other.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Also what it might depend on who has the better stand up. It's a stupid topic but you just can wrestling such short thrift.

I think he's talking about a hypothetical world where one guy only knows sport wrestling and is unaware of the existence of BJJ, and the BJJ guy hasn't done any wrestling as well. BJJ was designed to deal with someone like that. I think unless the wrestler was aware of submissions or had some other background, or had been coached on strategy, the bjj practitioner would eventually catch something. Especially if the physical attributes are equal. People seem to assume that in these situations it's always Royce vs. Severn and there's a 70 pound weight difference.

 

[knoxpk]

I think he's talking about a hypothetical world where one guy only knows sport wrestling and is unaware of the existence of BJJ, and the BJJ guy hasn't done any wrestling as well. BJJ was designed to deal with someone like that. I think unless the wrestler was aware of submissions or had some other background, or had been coached on strategy, the bjj practitioner would eventually catch something. Especially if the physical attributes are equal. People seem to assume that in these situations it's always Royce vs. Severn and there's a 70 pound weight difference.

I agree with everything you said here Rambo but the fly in the ointment as you said is that BJJ players at the very least have a strategy. The art was experimented on for years against your typical wrestler, boxer, judoka etc... So for the sake of argument we are comparing a style that knows and understands the strategy and the "look out fors" and the other style does not.



You cannot compare this in a vacuum, I would say they could and should have the knowledge that is readily available but perhaps they have not cross-trained yet. If that is the case the results would be a mixed bag, strategize to minimize a loss and maximize a win, both grapplers have the ability to do that and it would be a toss up IMO.

We are also talking about a fight, punches, kicks slams all of those things add an element and the wrestler does not always have the advantage, there is nothing saying a bjj guy cant outbox a wrestler at the same time there is no rule that the wrestler has to engage on the ground. Too many variables, as I mentioned this site used to keep stats of "style wins" and wrestling in general did at least as good as BJJ when the stats were kept. There really isnt that much reason to speculate anymore, the numbers dont lie. split pot, 50/50, even steven.


Edit- Well shit here it is!!

STYLE RECORDS RATIO (BEST)

Wrestling/boxing is the #1 style winning 83% of the time 2nd is BJJ/Boxing winning 81% of the time.

Now for "PURE" BJJ and Wrestling it gets flipped but is equally close.

Pure BJJ guys won 63% of the time, pure wrestlers 62% of the time. That is not directly comparing them against each other but I think we can agree that it is almost 50/50 no matter how you look at it.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Really silly responses IMO because around the same time Royce was choking out Severn Kerr was mangling Gurgels grill. So even then with little cross training the results were mixed.

Those fights were two years apart. Royce, massively outweighed by Severn, finished him in 15 minutes. Kerr, massively outweighing Gurgel, couldn't stop him in half an hour.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I agree with everything you said here Rambo but the fly in the ointment as you said is that BJJ players at the very least have a strategy. The art was experimented on for years against your typical wrestler, boxer, judoka etc... So for the sake of argument we are comparing a style that knows and understands the strategy and the "look out fors" and the other style does not.

I think you can still look at it in a vacuum. Yes, bjj has a fight strategy while wrestling does not. That's because BJJ was designed as a martial art, and wrestling in its modern form is taught purely as a sport. So in my eyes we're comparing a sport to a martial art (albeit a sport that will beat most other martial arts in a fight). I think many many wrestlers will beat bjj practitioners in a fight with minimal cross-training (you mentioned Kerr-Gurgel), depending on the individual from each style, but if the physical attributes are equal I don't think it's a 50/50 split, even if a fight. But I also don't think the BJJ practitioner wins every time. I've seen high level wrestlers hold down decent bjj guys at least in a grappling scenario many times.

 

[knoxpk]

Those fights were two years apart. Royce, massively outweighed by Severn, finished him in 15 minutes. Kerr, massively outweighing Gurgel, couldn't stop him in half an hour.

Massively outweigh is relative. Gurgel was the hvyweight BJJ champ at the time. Sometimes in the heavyweight division there is a 5 lb spread, sometimes a 50 lb spread. My brother used to wrestle heavyweight. There is no complaining that you have to fight a 270lb guy just cuz you weigh 225..

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

For the record, I'm not saying it makes sense to look at it in a vacuum, that's just what we're being asked to do, and if you do, well I've given my opinions on that. I'm aware that it's ridiculous in the real world to tell someone they can't cross-train in something, because everyone does, and has for the past 15+ years. There are very few fights outside of the early UFC's or Gracie videos where you're getting purely style vs style. And most of those were grapplers (of all styles) beating strikers.

 

[knoxpk]

I think you can still look at it in a vacuum. Yes, bjj has a fight strategy while wrestling does not. That's because BJJ was designed as a martial art, and wrestling in its modern form is taught purely as a sport. So in my eyes we're comparing a sport to a martial art (albeit a sport that will beat most other martial arts in a fight). I think many many wrestlers will beat bjj practitioners in a fight with minimal cross-training (you mentioned Kerr-Gurgel), depending on the individual from each style, but if the physical attributes are equal I don't think it's a 50/50 split, even if a fight. But I also don't think the BJJ practitioner wins every time. I've seen high level wrestlers hold down decent bjj guys at least in a grappling scenario many times.

We can agree to disagree, the stats are posted and while not perfect give a good indication of how things went.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

There is no complaining that you have to fight a 270lb guy just cuz you weigh 225..

Heh, tell it to the guys who have to face Lesnar! Mir thought he wasn't big enough at 245! (Personally I don't think size was his problem. The way to beat Mir is to punch him in the face.)

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

We can agree to disagree, the stats are posted and while not perfect give a good indication of how things went.

I don't think anything I said would go against those stats at all.

Of course, it's ridiculous that Sherdog lists "styles" at all. Bob Sapp's style was listed for years as "NFL" when everyone knows his style was lots of steroids.