Diet question...

[BoxingFan123]

Wait did someone just say:

Butter
Bacon
Eggs

are bad American diet?

 

[Envy]

That depends on your definition of bad.

Do I eat grains? No. Besides their carb load, there are things in grains I personally want to avoid. But that in no way means I'm telling anyone that grains are going to flat out kill them and everyone should right out give them up right now.

But like I've said quite a few times in several threads. I find it strange how everyone bashes paleo without mentioning how it's unhealthy or bad for you nutritionally. IE how is oatmeal over table sugar normal and accepted. But if someon picks vegetables or sweetpotstoes over oatmeal it odd enough to be likened to giving up meat and a crazy concept.

That's the thing, Some one on a non-paleo diet will look at oatmeal and sweet potatoes, and say," yeah, roughly isocaloric, about the same amount of carbs, either one is fine."

A paleo guy looks at the sweet potato and oats and says "this one's good, that one's bad."

A for your sugar argument, it's billshit. I'm not saying oats are good and sugar is bad, that's just you projecting your "black and white" idea of nutritional dogma.

Many athletes down tons of sugar peri and post-workout much to their benefit. Who the fuck am I to say athletes can't have their chocolate milk, or gatorade, or accelarade, or whatever, especially when if it helps get them to their body comp and performance goals?

 

[IDRISCKY]

Whenever a diet excludes something specifically, most people take that as to mean "this should should be avoided". Do you agree with that?

I agree with that. But at the same time does avoiding something mean it's inherently bad? No, it's the context. On most diets to lose body fat you avoid excess calories. Does that mean calories themselves are bad?

That's all I'm trying to say. I don't understand the hate for something that I have yet to see any point out actual reasons as to how it is bad, IE unhealthy.

That's the thing, Some one on a non-paleo diet will look at oatmeal and sweet potatoes, and say," yeah, roughly isocaloric, about the same amount of carbs, either one is fine."

A paleo guy looks at the sweet potato and oats and says "this one's good, that one's bad."

A for your sugar argument, it's billshit. I'm not saying oats are good and sugar is bad, that's just you projecting your "black and white" idea of nutritional dogma.

Many athletes down tons of sugar peri and post-workout much to their benefit. Who the fuck am I to say athletes can't have their chocolate milk, or gatorade, or accelarade, or whatever, especially when if it helps get them to their body comp and performance goals?

Please don't pretend to know me like that and make such blanket statements. I never once claimed you thought sugar was bad. I simply tried using an analogy to explain my point of view when asking you my questions. I'm projecting nothing, simply asking a question based on your statement that somehow choosing vegetables and sweet potatoes over grains in akin to not eating meat.

I'm left to draw my own conclusions about your statement since you avoided answering the questions I asked.

 

[Oblivian]

I agree with that. But at the same time does avoiding something mean it's inherently bad? No, it's the context. On most diets to lose body fat you avoid excess calories. Does that mean calories themselves are bad?

That's all I'm trying to say. I don't understand the hate for something that I have yet to see any point out actual reasons as to how it is bad, IE unhealthy.

I think it's pretty safe to conclude that a diet/lifestyle that tells you to completely avoid grains views grains as bad.

 

[IDRISCKY]

I think it's pretty safe to conclude that a diet/lifestyle that tells you to completely avoid grains views grains as bad.

Very true, I'd have to agree with that. That's part of the context I was referring to. I'd have to be lumped into the grains are "bad" population. But I think there are different levels of "bad", I don't think if one includes grains they will be inherently unhealthy or sickly. There are many healthy fit individuals that eat complete shit, and there are many unhealthy sickly people that eat "clean".

I can only speak from my personal view, not everyone that follows paleo. I personally do much better when my carbohydrate intake comes from specific sources like vegetables and tubers, and specifict things like grains completely fuck me up long term. I'm not trying to argue for or against paleo. That's an individual thing. So I do apologize if I come off like that. I simply don't understand, what looks like, blind hate for paleo simply because they chose to avoid grain, or gluten, or things they believe to be irritants or nutritionally less.

Like I tried to explain with my sugar comment. In most cases it is perfectly fine and acceptable to pick oats or whole grains over refined sugar. But picking fruit, vegetables, and/or tubers over grains is a bizarre alien concept to most. That point of view I don't understand.

 

[Oblivian]

Not specific to you, but that's where the problem lies. A lot of the "forbidden foods" of Paleo have been shown to have benefits and are unnecessary to avoid. Combine that with the gimmicky concept of Paleo, the rise in the trendiness of Paleo, the use of Paleo as a buzzword, etc., and you have the hate for it.

 

[Envy]

I agree with that. But at the same time does avoiding something mean it's inherently bad? No, it's the context. On most diets to lose body fat you avoid excess calories. Does that mean calories themselves are bad?

That's all I'm trying to say. I don't understand the hate for something that I have yet to see any point out actual reasons as to how it is bad, IE unhealthy.



Please don't pretend to know me like that and make such blanket statements. I never once claimed you thought sugar was bad. I simply tried using an analogy to explain my point of view when asking you my questions. I'm projecting nothing, simply asking a question based on your statement that somehow choosing vegetables and sweet potatoes over grains in akin to not eating meat.

I'm left to draw my own conclusions about your statement since you avoided answering the questions I asked.

The analogy was flawed, because it was based on me somehow picking oats as a "better" carb over sugar in the way you chose sweet potatoes and veggies as "better" carbs than oats.

But that isn't true. In many cases sugar can be benificial and total exclusion is unnecessary and unwarranted. (You yourself pointed out dark chocolate is fine, non-detrimental, and often beneficial). likewise, there are many scientific studies showing grains and dairy products to be benficial, both in reducing fat and improving health.

Even sugar has it's place.

Also, Lulz at my "billshit" comment.

 

[IDRISCKY]

The analogy was flawed, because it was based on me somehow picking oats as a "better" carb over sugar in the way you chose sweet potatoes and veggies as "better" carbs than oats.

But that isn't true. In many cases sugar can be benificial and total exclusion is unnecessary and unwarranted. (You yourself pointed out dark chocolate is fine, non-detrimental, and often beneficial). likewise, there are many scientific studies showing grains and dairy products to be benficial, both in reducing fat and improving health.

Even sugar has it's place.

Also, Lulz at my "billshit" comment.

To be honest, I wasn't sure if you'd pick oats over sugar. Which was why I phrased it as a question and use doubt. So I don't think it was flawed as an analogy, as it still served it's purpose to demonstrate an example.

But let me ask you this. If you have no problem with people eating pure sugar as their carb source, why is excluding a source in favor of another such a big deal? Simply because there are studies showing benefits doesn't necessarily mean you NEED to consume something. So if someone that doesn't eat grains is as fit and healthy as someone that eats grains. What's the big deal? Is it just the broad exclusion itself?

Because that's fine. I'd understand that. You don't like that it excludes so many things you believe have their places in healthy diet. But saying not eating grains is like not eating red meat really got to me since that really said nothing about paleo nutritionally. Being healthy or not.

 

[IronMaidenfan#1]

No wonder MikeMartial left the forum.

 

[IronMaidenfan#1]

Seriously guys, why are there so many problems on this board at the moment?

 

[glennpendlay]

To be clear... I am not Paleo. I do not advocate a Paleo diet. I asked the question because I wondered what the current dominant thoughts were in MMA in terms of diet.

I personally am a fan of eating a lot of and a large variety of vegatables. And meat. I am not afraid of potatoes. Stew with meat, carrots and potatoes is one of my favorite meals. I am also not scared of grains. I try not to eat a lot of them... but thats because my activity level does not warrant it, to eat them id either have to replace foods that I think are more nutrient dense (veggies) or add them and get fat (or more accurately, get fatter, lol). For a hard training athlete, potatoes and oats are fine, IMO.

I gave up on the food pyramid type of diet a long time ago, because it became apparent to me that athletes who dont get enough fat cant train as hard. I understand the "Burger kind and pizza" type of diet, cause I know how hard it can be to keep weight on, and how hard it is for some people if they dont eat a certain amount of junk.

What I didnt know is that diet is right up there with religion and politics when it comes to subjects that you cant bring up without an argument. But, thank you to everyone who has participated so far, it has indeed been an education for me to see how MMA folks, or at least this group of them, feel about diet.

 

[IDRISCKY]

By the way, is this the same Glenn Pendlay of Pendlay Barbells?

 

[Envy]

But let me ask you this. If you have no problem with people eating pure sugar as their carb source, why is excluding a source in favor of another such a big deal? Simply because there are studies showing benefits doesn't necessarily mean you NEED to consume something. So if someone that doesn't eat grains is as fit and healthy as someone that eats grains. What's the big deal? Is it just the broad exclusion itself?

Because that's fine. I'd understand that. You don't like that it excludes so many things you believe have their places in healthy diet. But saying not eating grains is like not eating red meat really got to me since that really said nothing about paleo nutritionally. Being healthy or not.

Yes, it's the exlusionary principle. If you want to choose to exclude all grains and dairy, fine. If you want to exclude all red meat, fine. If you want to exclude all meat, fine. If you want to exclude fruit, fine. It's all your choice. You'll be fine excluding any of those things, and you won't keel over.

But look at how you took offense to me comparing the exclusion of red meat and the exclusion of grains and dairy. Why? Why did it bother you? People are perfectly capable of being healthy and fit without eating red meat, no?

If you look at your opinions on diets that arbitrarily exclude red meat, and the reasons for those opinions, you'll probably find my opinions on diets that exclude dairy and grains to be quite similar.

 

[XTrainer]

^Yes. How cool is that? With that in mind, can we not turn this into another ridiculous Paleo thread, and, in respect to Glenn, try to stay on topic? If we need to argue more about Paleo (*loud groan*), start a new thread.

Come on guys, I thought we demystified "Paleo" months ago? Or was that just my wishful thinking?

 

[XTrainer]

(EDIT: Envy sneaked in there)

 

[Oblivian]

No wonder MikeMartial left the forum.

Seriously guys, why are there so many problems on this board at the moment?

Lols at making this comment when Glenn Pendlay just posted a thread in here. Do you really think that has been a heated discussion? I know I didn't view my conversation with IDRISCKY as heated.

I'm just trying to explain why I feel that Paleo gets a bad wrap from most people. And as I said, I feel it's from the exclusion of a lot of beneficial foods, the ridiculous caveman marketing concept, how Paleo has become such a buzzword (even when describing a diet that isn't Paleo), and how everyone and their mother is "going paleo". With that said, I don't think everyone that eats a Paleo diet is an idiot. I do, however, think it is suggested way too much and that it isn't ideal for a lot of people.

 

[Envy]

No wonder MikeMartial left the forum.

I don't think Mike left because of dissent in the ranks, but rather because he's a very busy guy with a burgeoning training business to run.

With that in mind, can we not turn this into another ridiculous Paleo thread, and, in respect to Glenn, try to stay on topic? If we need to argue more about Paleo (*loud groan*), start a new thread.

Well, Glenn's thread was predicated on a argument about nutrition, and he kinda lumped everybody into 3 pretty particular groups in the OP.

I mean, if somebody started a thread asking whether posters were in the burger king and slop eating crowd or educated, raw food vegans, he/she would get the rotten tomato and cane-around-the-neck treatment.

 

[XTrainer]

I don't think Mike left because of dissent in the ranks, but rather because he's a very busy guy with a burgeoning training business to run.

That, and he and Sinister like making things "interesting" for me :icon_chee

Well, Glenn's thread was predicated on a argument about nutrition, and he kinda lumped everybody into 3 pretty particular groups in the OP.

I mean, if somebody started a thread asking whether posters were in the burger king and slop eating crowd or educated, raw food vegans, he/she would get the rotten tomato and cane-around-the-neck treatment.

I understand what where you're coming from. All I'm saying is that Glenn asked where people in this world stood on nutrition. He didn't ask us to rehash the tired debates. I pretty sure Glenn was using "Paleo" in the same non-ideological, shorthand sense that a lot of people use the term "Paleo." I don't mean to put words in his mouth, but I surmise it is simply much easier for Glenn to reference Paleo than to spell out everything he eats and/or does not eat, or restricts, in his diet. For example, it's a lot easier for me to say, "I eat Paleo, with some allowance for dairy, oats, and legumes (PB!)," than to say spell out everything I do eat, and everything I avoid. The former gives you not only a pretty good idea of what I eat, but also a rough idea of how I prioritize things in my diet, all in a concise package. The latter would take ten times as many words to explain as much. That's it. No preachy caveman talk.

But I've been over this before.

 

[glennpendlay]

I wasnt really wanting to debate nutrition. I dont know that there is a clearly superior way for an athlete to eat, although as I have said, I do feel like most people are able to train harder if they get adequate fat. I have definate feelings as to what is HEALTHY, but that is different from what is ideal for athletics, at least i think it can be in many instances.

What is interesting to me is the shift over the years from one sort of diet to another, and how it has proceeded along different time lines in different sports.

 

[IDRISCKY]

Lols at making this comment when Glenn Pendlay just posted a thread in here. Do you really think that has been a heated discussion? I know I didn't view my conversation with IDRISCKY as heated.

I'm just trying to explain why I feel that Paleo gets a bad wrap from most people. And as I said, I feel it's from the exclusion of a lot of beneficial foods, the ridiculous caveman marketing concept, how Paleo has become such a buzzword (even when describing a diet that isn't Paleo), and how everyone and their mother is "going paleo". With that said, I don't think everyone that eats a Paleo diet is an idiot. I do, however, think it is suggested way too much and that it isn't ideal for a lot of people.

This. I was in no way trying to start an argument/fight with anyone, Envy included. But rather discus the different points of view and try to understand something I didn't at the time. Diet choice is up to the individual and I couldn't care less how others choose to eat. That's their right.

But, Yes, X is right. Sorry for dragging the paleo soapbox into this thread too, X and Glenn.

^Yes. How cool is that?

Was this to my Glenn Pendlay question? If so that's pretty freakin' awesome. I can't say I know much about Glenn, but what little I do know is he's a pretty freakin' nice guy and very loyal to his customers. I've read a few threads on the CrossFit boards about his bars and/or customer service.