Diet question...

[glennpendlay]

I am pretty set in my ways as far as the way that I prefer the athletes that I coach to eat. Doesnt mean I wont listen to something new, but I would have to be convinced... And in fact, because I dont have much contact with the "fitness" and bodybuilding world, sometimes take it for granted that most people would agree with me. I was surprised to get into a fairly heated "discussion" with a woman who considers herself something of a nutrition "expert" for fitness on another website.

Debate here...

Muscle Dog

This exchange got me to wondering... how widespread are the ideas that I adhere to? Am I in the majority or the minority?

Which camp most MMA guys fall into.

IMO, there are 3 major diet camps when it comes to athletes...

1. This is the we train damn hard and dont put on bodyfat eating 3 double whoppers at BK, eat as much as we damn well want of whatever food we damn well want camp.

2. These are the guys who are not scared of fat, but try to eat "whole" and unprocessed foods. Many take cues from the "Paleo" crowd. Lots of eggs and meat. Lots of vegatables. Maybe make sure you get your salmon and Omega-3's, but not afraid of a slice of butter. Usually stay away from sugar and starchy and "processed" food. Try to emphasise veggies over fruit.

3. The food pyramid crowd. Fat is bad, plenty of complex carbs. Loves whole grain bread. Red meat in very small amounts, always buys the leanest cuts. Usually big chicken eaters. More likely to have orange juice for breakfast than milk, and its skim milk when they do drink it.

I am pretty squarely in the #2 camp. I know a lot of successful athletes are in the #1 camp. Bodybuilders and "fitness" folks are often in the #3 camp. Women seem to be more likely to be in the #3 camp.

I have run across a number of women, more than a few actually, who will tell you that they train so very hard, then tell you that they are eating egg whites with the yolks out to say within 1500 calories a day. This does not compute for me.

But, back to the topic at hand, I am interersted in what the prevailing wisdom is in MMA. Burger King, Paleo, or Food Pyramid?

 

[mmafreedom]

For high performance atheletes, the likes of which have very intense bursts of anaerobic work *i.e. exchanging strikes in the pocket, shooting for a takedown, scrambling*, I think you want high protein, moderate-high carb and slightly lower fats (making sure you get your essential fatty acids). It is all relative to what the person's goals are though, I presume.

 

[XTrainer]

(My post from the S&C thread)

First of all, glenn, why not post this in D&S, we'd be happy to have you

I can't speak for the entire MMA world, but most of the MMA/BJJ/grappling guys I meet in training are either in the #1 or #3 camp. It's hard to tell difference between indifference to good nutrition (#1) and, for those who do care, ignorance of good nutrition--and simply going with conventional wisdom instead (#3).

On this board, most of the active D&S posters are in the #2 camp (as am I). There is a wealth of literature supporting the #2 school of thought in the D&S stickies because, quite simply, an objective and rational examination of the data lead one to the conclusions of the #2 school.

 

[cooks1]

Well, I would say most people in the D & S forum would be #2 as well. With the occasional voice of informed dissent, malinformed troller, or uneducated newcomer.

I would have to say however, that the breakfast you suggested was a shitload of fat and calories. By my reckoning that is slightly north of 1000 calories, with around 60 grams of fat. I hope your folks are working their ass off.

 

[KILL KILL]

I'm a #2. But I've been out of competition for a while. Once I go back in a month or so, so will my carbohydrate intake.

 

[Mooney]

I would call myself a #2, though on training days (monday to thursday) I tend to eat quite alot of fruit and nuts, as well as allowing milk. The weekends are pretty low carb, generally only coming from veggies, with the odd piece of dark chocolate or a handfull of macadamias.

 

[glennpendlay]

Well, I would say most people in the D & S forum would be #2 as well. With the occasional voice of informed dissent, malinformed troller, or uneducated newcomer.

I would have to say however, that the breakfast you suggested was a shitload of fat and calories. By my reckoning that is slightly north of 1000 calories, with around 60 grams of fat. I hope your folks are working their ass off.

They are, and, honestly, the single biggest problem is maintaining bodyweight. With a couple of them, they are still losing bodyweight at 5,000 to 6,000 calories a day. Its still exreemely hard to not lose weight without going to burger king or pizza hut.

 

[Searcher]

The guys I lift with along with myself try to concentrate on volume first, then quality second. So if I had to chose between ice cream and burgers or nothing, I'd choose ice cream and burgers. We buy as many veggies and as much meat as we can, then have cereal, or some other cheap carb we can find, I even go with pizza or soda sometimes.

To the guy who thinks 1000 kcal a meal is too much, you are very mistaken. at a measily 195lbs, I can eat 3-4 pb&j sandwitches, a long with some glasses of milk and whatever other treat or candybar floats my way. As far as meat, half a pound is nothing. Especially if its something tasty like steak, I'd easily down a pound or two along with some broccoli. 3-5meals of this. Another meal is two packs of ramen and a .5lb-1lb of boneless chicken breast.

 

[Envy]

I think all 3 of those groups are bunk.

I don't think anyone here needs to be told about the ridiculousness of the food pyramid's limits of fats and meat. But, the pendulum swings back into absurdity with the carbophobia present in group 2, or the paleo crowd. Completely eschewing oats, some tubers, grains, beans, some fruits and all dairy is about as ridiculous as ditching red meat, nuts, and healthy fats.

 

[IDRISCKY]

I think all 3 of those groups are bunk.

I don't think anyone here needs to be told about the ridiculousness of the food pyramid's limits of fats and meat. But, the pendulum swings back into absurdity with the carbophobia present in group 2, or the paleo crowd. Completely eschewing oats, some tubers, grains, beans, some fruits and all dairy is about as ridiculous as ditching red meat, nuts, and healthy fats.

Explain how? Simply because one can have a healthy diet including these things, they should? Does it mean they can't have a healthy diet without these things? Because they choose not to eat these things doesn't make them scared of carbohydrates either. It's simply attempting to make better food choices.

Would you pick 100 grams of table sugar over 100 grams of oats as a healthy option? I doubt so. So why is picking 100 grams of sweet potato over 100 grams of oats such a crazy, ridiculous choice?

I knew Glenn was going to, unintentionally, open a can of worms when he mentioned paleo.

 

[Envy]

Explain how? Simply because one can have a healthy diet including these things, they should? Does it mean they can't have a healthy diet without these things? Because they choose not to eat these things doesn't make them scared of carbohydrates either. It's simply attempting to make better food choices.

Would you pick 100 grams of table sugar over 100 grams of oats as a healthy option? I doubt so. So why is picking 100 grams of sweet potato over 100 grams of oats such a crazy, ridiculous choice?

I knew Glenn was going to, unintentionally, open a can of worms when he mentioned paleo.

Likewise can you explain how people can't have a healthy diet if they include these things? Can you explain why not eating these is a better choice?

Many people do include a large amount sugar post-workout. Why is choosing oats over sweet potato such a crazy, ridiculous choice?

Seriously, there are reams and reams of scientific studies showing the benefits of whole grains which are ignored by the Paleo crowd.

Here's Lyle McDonald's rant on Paleo:

there is some evidence in that respect, yes. Certainly chronic hyperinsulinemia as occurs with teh combination of modern diet + inactivity does bad things. So fine, if you want to talk about the average modern person, perhaps paleo diet would be better than a 64 oz coke every day. No joke.

Of course they also have done no activity since 1992 and the paleo people alwys focus on the diet alone and ignore the OTHER apsects of supposed paleo man's life that contributed. Christ, why am I bothering typing this all up again, I've already discussed this with bitsobrawn and gareth even if they were both too dumb to pay attention.

I thought we were talking about bodybuilders and grains....becuase regular activity affects insulin sensitivity and release. And few athletes eat the kinds of foods endemic to the modern diet.

And grains aren't evil in any case. As dozens and dozens of studies say. But I'm not typing up that again either. Without the development of grains, humanity never would have evolved. Of course it's easy to be paleo man when you can go to Wild oats and buy your food. I want these paleo extremists to do it right: get off the computer (Paleo man didn't have it), toss your glasses (paleo man didn't have it), get rid of your car (paleo man didn't have them). Go live in teh woods and do it right or shut the hell up about it. Dont pick and choose the easy aspects of living a paleo life. Because that's all that any of them are doing.

Of course they won't, they are just a bunch of rich Americans who get to make inane choices about their food intake (like vegetarians) because they live in a world that WOULD NOT EXIST IF MAN HADN'T STOPPED BEING A HUNTER GATHERER AND DOMESTICATED GRAINS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Of course, it's fun to watch the paleo guys quite Cordain and Eaton's SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH ARTICLES but choose to ignore the ones on grains because they don't like what they say.

Oh yeah, paleo guys: move out of your house and go build a hut.

No more medicine either, if you get sick good luck with that. Go figure out which herbs are good for certain things.

Quit your gym, paleo man didn't have rotating barbells and weights. Go lift rocks and antelopes for exercise. When you aren't spending 4 hours/day trying to obtain food by hand.

No supplements either. No creatine, no none of that. If you want fish oils, learn to spear hunt.

Oh yeah, and please drop dead at age 40 since that's about average life expectancy for paleo man. Don't rely on the medical technology that wouldn't exist if man hadn't domesticated grains and been able to put energy into more than survival because paleo man didn't get to either.

But stop picking and choosing which bits you do and do not think are valid.

 

[IDRISCKY]

Likewise can you explain how people can't have a healthy diet if they include these things? Can you explain why not eating these is a better choice?

Many people do include a large amount sugar post-workout. Why is choosing oats over sweet potato such a crazy, ridiculous choice?

Here's Lyle McDonald's rant on Paleo:

All you did was ask the question I asked you in turn. I never said it was a crazy, ridiculous choice and I never said anyone can't have a healthy diet if they include them.

 

[Blackice]

That rant by Lyle McDonald is stupid anyway, because I don't hear a lot of people advocating the paleo "lifestyle", I hear them advocating a paleo diet. So to go and tell paleo people to build a hut, go lift antelopes etc etc or stfu is retarded. people are free to pick and choose the things they want from different ways of living and dieting anyway. It's not an all or nothing deal for almost anything in life. There's that thing called middle ground that a lot of people seem to ignore.

 

[millasur]

I started reading but then the feeling of wanting to choke her on her egg whites became too great. In answer to your question, definitely 2.

 

[numberthirtytwo]

I only began to read the thread but a couple things. 1) different people have different goals. Powerlifters who don't care about having (or actually want) 20% bodyfat will be different than chicks who want to look good naked. Why the hate? Do you guys really want the girls you date to eat the same as a powerlifter?

So for your goals what you eat might be fine. But here;s the other thing: Yeah saturated fat isn't necessarily bad, eating fat is good for you, and so on, but from what I saw from the thread you do eat like shit. Combining all that all that with bread, hash browns, etc. - basically you're eating high fat with lots of grains, starches and processed foods. The standard american diet, maybe with less sugar. That's a shitty diet. It might make you huge but it's not what i would call a recipe for longevity. Just because fat isn't bad for you doesn't mean nothing is.

I agree with her that these are fantastic examples of a standard shitty american diet breakfast:

-Buttered bread
-Bacon
-Cheese
-Ham and Turkey
-Eggs and sausage
-Cheese
-Buttered bread.

four eggs with cheese, three sausage links, hash browns and a few pieces of toast with butter

 

[Blackice]

I only began to read the thread but a couple things. 1) different people have different goals. Powerlifters who don't care about having (or actually want) 20% bodyfat will be different than chicks who want to look good naked. Why the hate? Do you guys really want the girls you date to eat the same as a powerlifter?

So for your goals what you eat might be fine. But here;s the other thing: Yeah saturated fat isn't necessarily bad, eating fat is good for you, and so on, but from what I saw from the thread you do eat like shit. Combining all that all that with bread, hash browns, etc. - basically you're eating high fat with lots of grains, starches and processed foods. The standard american diet, maybe with less sugar. That's a shitty diet. It might make you huge but it's not what i would call a recipe for longevity. Just because fat isn't bad for you doesn't mean nothing is.

I agree with her that these are fantastic examples of a standard shitty american diet breakfast:

The only things I see wrong on that list is the bread, but you can get decent bread like sourdough or ezeikiel bread, the hash browns which you can make from left over boiled or steamed sweet potato, and I'm not a sausage person on the whole, but there's nothing wrong with REAL hash browns and sausage, whole eggs, bacon or butter, ham or turkey with breakfast. Maybe if you ate that entire list at one sitting yeah, but on the whole..I wouldn't say that's a shitty breakfast. The cheese is fine too. it's easy enough to make the non-mcdonald's version. A lot of people here eat like a half pound of bacon or more at breakfast. I eat 1/4 pound. Buttered bread once in awhile even if it's white isn't going to kill you. However...I do realize that a lot of Americans AND Canadians eat ready cook bacon or the lie that is Lilydale Daystarters, boxed hashbrowns and not the best breakfast sausage in the world. I'm just not sure if you're talking about ONLY the overly processed shit or butter, bacon sausage etc in general at breakfast.

 

[Oblivian]

All you did was ask the question I asked you in turn. I never said it was a crazy, ridiculous choice and I never said anyone can't have a healthy diet if they include them.

I think most people look at Paleo as inherently saying "grains are bad".

 

[Oblivian]

I only began to read the thread but a couple things. 1) different people have different goals. Powerlifters who don't care about having (or actually want) 20% bodyfat will be different than chicks who want to look good naked. Why the hate? Do you guys really want the girls you date to eat the same as a powerlifter?

So for your goals what you eat might be fine. But here;s the other thing: Yeah saturated fat isn't necessarily bad, eating fat is good for you, and so on, but from what I saw from the thread you do eat like shit. Combining all that all that with bread, hash browns, etc. - basically you're eating high fat with lots of grains, starches and processed foods. The standard american diet, maybe with less sugar. That's a shitty diet. It might make you huge but it's not what i would call a recipe for longevity. Just because fat isn't bad for you doesn't mean nothing is.

I agree with her that these are fantastic examples of a standard shitty american diet breakfast:

 

[IDRISCKY]

I think most people look at Paleo as inherently saying "grains are bad".

That depends on your definition of bad.

Do I eat grains? No. Besides their carb load, there are things in grains I personally want to avoid. But that in no way means I'm telling anyone that grains are going to flat out kill them and everyone should right out give them up right now.

But like I've said quite a few times in several threads. I find it strange how everyone bashes paleo without mentioning how it's unhealthy or bad for you nutritionally. IE how is oatmeal over table sugar normal and accepted. But if someon picks vegetables or sweetpotstoes over oatmeal it odd enough to be likened to giving up meat and a crazy concept.

 

[Oblivian]

That depends on your definition of bad.

Do I eat grains? No. Besides their carb load, there are things in grains I personally want to avoid. But that in no way means I'm telling anyone that grains are going to flat out kill them and everyone should right out give them up right now.

But like I've said quite a few times in several threads. I find it strange how everyone bashes paleo without mentioning how it's unhealthy or bad for you nutritionally. IE how is oatmeal over table sugar normal and accepted. But if someon picks vegetables or sweetpotstoes over oatmeal it odd enough to be likened to giving up meat and a crazy concept.

Whenever a diet excludes something specifically, most people take that as to mean "this should should be avoided". Do you agree with that?