Did the Gracies pioneer pulling guard as a transition from stand-up to the ground?

[Judochopatemi]

Guard play was frowned upon in Judo. Having established that, pulling guard as a means to take it to the ground on your back was hardly a tactic used by Judokas. Judoka and Jiujitsu practioners prior to the formation of Judo considered getting on your back a failure...

By reasonable inference, isn't it likely that the Gracies did indeed pioneer this tactic in grappling which has proven to win time and time again in sport gi-grappling?

There was very poor documentation on this matter online. I don't believe pulling guard in reference to Judo was about transitioning from stand-up to ground, but the term did exist.

 

[nefti]

No.
Just like kano "invented randori" and "created judo" by taking away techniques.

The gracies "invented leverage" and "created gracie jiu jitsu" by taking away techniques.

 

[Judochopatemi]

No.
Just like kano "invented randori" and "created judo" by taking away techniques.

The gracies "invented leverage" and "created gracie jiu jitsu" by taking away techniques.

Note that I didn't use the word "invent". And if you claim that they didn't pioneer pulling guard, can you point to anyone doing it prior to them?

 

[Judochopatemi]

The gracies "invented leverage" and "created gracie jiu jitsu" by taking away techniques.

Leg locks are reinstated, and they were banned in Judo as well. The only thing missing from GJJ/BJJ is head first slams.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

As a fighting strategy, yes. As you said, they didn’t invent it, but if there was anything helio “created” was fighting off your back as a viable fighting strategy

 

[Judochopatemi]

As a fighting strategy, yes. As you said, they didn’t invent it, but if there was anything helio “created” was fighting off your back as a viable fighting strategy

Unless Luta Livre did?

 

[Judochopatemi]

Or not...

Unlike mainstream Kodokan competition rules, kosen rules allow hikikomi (引込, pulling-in), enabling competitors to transition to ne-waza by dragging their opponent down without using a recognised nage-waza technique (analogous to pulling-guard).

 

[Gandhi]

Im no expert but IIRC Judo was not always so throw based and had way more ground fighting. I think repopularized and reemphasized would be the better way to put it.

 

[Kforcer]

As a fighting strategy, yes. As you said, they didn’t invent it, but if there was anything helio “created” was fighting off your back as a viable fighting strategy

I wouldn't say that. Fighting off the back was a major factor in the wrestling versus jujutsu/BJJ matches back in the day. And it was a major part of the Handa school newazza guys back in the day and a big part of Tanabae's game as well. I think Helio helped to popularize that approach but he definitely didn't create it. Maeda was known for attacking wrestlers off his back, for example.

 

[Chandler sama]

No, this was a known tactic in Judo that some people used. It was used when someone was outmatched on the feet. Kano didn't like this because he said standing throws are harder to learn, so people should focus on that before ground techniques. He also was a bit biased against ground work. He banned the practice of pulling guard to stop people from avoiding standing grappling. He did however see the merit in having ground specialists, so he allowed guard pulling and extended ground work at a few universities which is now known as Kosen judo.

Although I don't know if the people that taught the Gracies taught them to pull guard, they were certainly familiar with the technique

 

[nefti]

Like i said before
Kano didnt invent anything including randori
The gracies didnt invent anything including leverage

 

[lechien]

Note that I didn't use the word "invent". And if you claim that they didn't pioneer pulling guard, can you point to anyone doing it prior to them?

In kosen judo competition format, Judokas could pull guard.
There is Kyoto judo university team that still train under kosen judo and pull guard during sparring.
An old kosen judo master told me that he think that kosen judo style was favoured by specific regions of Japan back in the days.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

Gracies did not invent pulling guard, and they did not popularize it either. They did recognize it as a valuable tool to use when necessary for fighting. However, they did train and practice it but they publicly frowned upon it.

Back in Brazil in the early days of BJJ, The Gracies were ahead of the curve in terms of technique. They claimed to not hold back techniques when teaching but for sure, some techniques were only taught to the inner circle or family. They denied the claim of holding back techniques. But Sport BJJ exposed this, as when competitions came around, what did they do? Employ various methods of guard pulling not seen in Brazil at that time, evidencing that they had been holding back when teaching non-family

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Unless Luta Livre did?

they did not, not even close. Fighting off your back was a no no and is still a no no in LL, you should be there on your back the littles time possible, specially the old school LL.

 

[kintana]

Guard play was frowned upon in Judo. Having established that, pulling guard as a means to take it to the ground on your back was hardly a tactic used by Judokas. Judoka and Jiujitsu practioners prior to the formation of Judo considered getting on your back a failure...

By reasonable inference, isn't it likely that the Gracies did indeed pioneer this tactic in grappling which has proven to win time and time again in sport gi-grappling?

There was very poor documentation on this matter online. I don't believe pulling guard in reference to Judo was about transitioning from stand-up to ground, but the term did exist.

They created leverage so anything related to leverage you can say it was Gracie owned.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Or not...

Unlike mainstream Kodokan competition rules, kosen rules allow hikikomi (引込, pulling-in), enabling competitors to transition to ne-waza by dragging their opponent down without using a recognised nage-waza technique (analogous to pulling-guard).

Did the gracies had contact with kosen universitys? Maeda came out from the kodokan. Also, how many kosen judo guys were figthing in brazil back in the days? not many...

 

[Os3y3ris]

Fusen - ryu or something like that used this method.

 

[MMA Time Soldier]

Guard play was frowned upon in Judo. Having established that, pulling guard as a means to take it to the ground on your back was hardly a tactic used by Judokas. Judoka and Jiujitsu practioners prior to the formation of Judo considered getting on your back a failure...

By reasonable inference, isn't it likely that the Gracies did indeed pioneer this tactic in grappling which has proven to win time and time again in sport gi-grappling?

There was very poor documentation on this matter online. I don't believe pulling guard in reference to Judo was about transitioning from stand-up to ground, but the term did exist.

No as someone had mentioned it comes from the Kosen Newazza/Fusen Ryu style that came into a judo tournament in Japan and started pulling guard/going to the ground and dominating.

Also, the Japanese Judoka who were unleashed on the world when Japan was opened up to outsiders, travelled around the world and would often take on all comers one after the other and carnivals and concert halls. Often taking on all challengers, maybe 50 people a show. Inevitably if they got tired or were facing a challenger who had some wrestling background or superior size they would have to resort to the ground game to choke or submit the opponent. In England they were often referred to as Jujitsu or Judo men or Japanese Wrestlers. Someone like Maeda who travelled to England and Cuba as well as Brazil likely took on all comers and had to use an assortment of styles.

The likely reason he taught the Gracie kids Fusen Ryu is because 1) it's effective 2) the Gracie kids were frail and small 3) Gracie was the mayor of the town and he didn't want to possibly injury the kids with Judo throws while he was trying to get the mayor's help in establishing a Japanese farming colony.

 

[Judochopatemi]

Did the gracies had contact with kosen universitys? Maeda came out from the kodokan. Also, how many kosen judo guys were figthing in brazil back in the days? not many...

I don't think he did, but it's possible that he was familiar with it

 

[MMA Time Soldier]

Did the gracies had contact with kosen universitys? Maeda came out from the kodokan. Also, how many kosen judo guys were figthing in brazil back in the days? not many...

See my post above.

Fusen Ryu/Kosen Ryu:
'The school rose to fame again in 1891, when its headmaster Mataemon Tanabe defeated the Kodokan judoka Takisaburo Tobari in a challenge match. At the time, most jujutsu schools in Tokyo were losing place to the growing Kodokan, and the victory was shocking not only for coming from one of them, but also for how easily it happened thanks to Tanabe's personal advantage at newaza. The victory was followed by many others, and Tanabe capitalized on them to promote himself and his style by claiming his wins demonstrated the superiority of Fusen-ryū over judo and not any skill on his part.[6] "

. . .
Eventually his son Teruo and his most known apprentices, Taro Miyake and Yukio Tani, became members of the Kodokan"

Maeda was born in 1878 so likely would have been aware of the the Fusen Ryu style. And like I said, just through combat and fighting all sorts of opponents would have seen the ground/on your back game as useful.