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And I understand that studies are at times flawed or made with a bias going in but here you go. Also go ahead and name some public figures who are biracial and publicly have stated that they identify with the other race over black and I'll do the opposite. Guarantee I can come up with a bigger list than you. Also you and the other guy keep bringing up telli being born and raised in Asia. She grew up on military bases. Find me a video of her speaking Japanese or Tagalog fluently, I doubt she speaks either one.
I guarantee a dummy on sherdog can not tell somebody how they identify from a different country based on a random list of other people. Majority has nothing to do with it. It's an individual's perspective and their unique experience. Which you dont know anything about. You still don't get it. Save your bad takes for boxing. Who the fk are you to tell or assume how somebody identifies their race.

One of the biggest stars in the world laughs at your take.
Does the fkn Rock solely identify as Black or African American???????? His father was his hero & role model. Was in his life.
Most people identify the Rock as Samoan.

“Glad I came across this and I’ll give you guys some context & truth. I identify as exactly what I am – both. Equally proud. Black/Samoan,” Johnson tweeted.


Now go ahead and take your articles and your crack pipe theory & tell the Rock...."no no no no Mr Rock. You must let a dumbass Sherdoger with news links tell you that you must identify or should identify as "black." Simply because your dad was around, you speak English, and other people unrelated to you identify as such. All while I share no ethnic or cultural heritage with you. I talked to a half Mexican & Black before, so thats how I can dictate to you about your own heritage & culture. "
 
What doesn't make sense? How you can justify the piece of shit tendencies of your heros but call out others for doing the same. That's a bit hypocritical.

I dont believe Ali was a "kid fiddler." Nor do I subscribe to your hierarchy of modern virtue signaling to where if a man puts his hands on a woman it makes him the worst thing in the world or irredeemable. Context & specifics matter. Physically assaulting any human being is wrong. It's also a bit worse the more defenseless they are. However, in my opinion there are plenty worse people. Also, a man that slips up and makes a mistake once out of passion & rage is not the same as somebody who has a history of domestic violence. Again context and scenario matters.

Ali fought fire with fire. I would of hated a group of people that told me I wasn't a full person or human being then took my full tax dollar at the same rate to give unequal services. Then jailed me for not wanting to risk my life overseas for a country that oppressed me & my kin. I would of even hated the people who didn't fight or speak out against such appalling nonsense.

Ali changed his opinion & did regret some of the hard-line stances he took. Especially the whole Nation of Islam vs Malcolm X controversy. He has white in-law children at this point & biracial grandchildren. He has publicly even spoke out against some of the stuff he did & said.
I still get bothered by how he did Joe Frazier. But if Joe can forgive and recognize Ali's heroic greatness i can follow suit.


People are complicated . All these great men were far from perfect or role-models in many area.

I applaud your growth. People are truly complicated, every human. And in addition to that, historical context is also a significant factor when assessing a man’s life, the pressures and norms of today are vastly different than previous generations.

I’m assuming this stance now applies to people like Lee, speaking of whom the majority of men from his day up until this current generation revered his character.
 
I applaud your growth. People are truly complicated, every human. And in addition to that, historical context is also a significant factor when assessing a man’s life, the pressures and norms of today are vastly different than previous generations.

I’m assuming this stance now applies to people like Lee, speaking of whom the majority of men from his day up until this current generation revered his character.
Lol. I legit thought about tagging you in here. Unfortunately that's going to be a no for me, on Lee dog.

Here is why:
I believe that there are core values of good men that transcend time. I am allowed to define what I consider to be a great human being. I don't have to have the same or lower standards that other people may have.
There are plenty of examples from Lee's generation that knew and believed that a concept like majority rule sovereignty does not supercede human rights. We are talking about a genocide and oppression that lasted hundreds of years. It should not be whitewashed or it should not be dismissed due to the Confederacy having other catalyst for the succession & war. It was a selfish false sense of regional nationalism.

Lee lived a full & prosperous life. At some point in his life if he had condemned his acts of owning & inheriting slaves and his treasonous actions, than maybe some of his critics could examine him deeper. It wouldn't matter to me though.

In life there are certain decisions, actions, stances you can't come back from. Killing in the name of wanting to violate others is not something I will ever give a pass to. It should be a scarlet letter.

I define people not by doing the right things because they are in fashion. But by doing the right things despite the times.

I don't care if somehow it was legal to own slaves again & all my neighbors had slaves. I wouldn't participate. I would think a million times less of my neighbors. I would only try to align & associate with men who also recognized how fk'ed it is to engage in this reprehensible behavior. I enjoy people who can think for themselves and stand on their principles despite being surrounded by idiots & sheep.

I would understand your point if there wasn't a rich history of religious sects, human rights advocates, abolitionist, medical professionals, & just ordinary citizens who still despite the "norm" called it for what it was.

Then you may even be able to forgive ignorance to a point. But after interacting with human beings & seeing that they had feelings, emotions, families, mental capacity, & the same abilities as everyone else.....yet you still choose to ignore these fact to support "tradition." Not to mention still propagate the disinformation of them not being full humans (after knowing you could procreate with them as well smh).
Nah thats a POS in my book.
 
I applaud your growth. People are truly complicated, every human. And in addition to that, historical context is also a significant factor when assessing a man’s life, the pressures and norms of today are vastly different than previous generations.

I’m assuming this stance now applies to people like Lee, speaking of whom the majority of men from his day up until this current generation revered his character.
they really are, i remember my ma telling me once when i said, "that guy is too old for a 16 year old, she said, "I was only 17 when I met your dad" who was 37. In earlier times, people just didn't give much thought to that kind of thing. I remember hearing that early miss usa contestants were only 14. If Ali meeting his 16 year old wife was a big deal then, someone would have said something, no one did. Seems backwards to us/me but it wasn't seen that way by anyone then. And, for whatever reason, many successful men over 30 have pursued teens in earlier decades. Marvin Gaye's muse, Jan was 16 when they met, Elvis met Priscilla even younger, people just didn't raise as much hell about that unless your were as wild as Jerry Lee Lewis who married his 13 year old cousin.
 
Sad ending to this guy. Hope he doesn't go off the deep end or end up in prison. Still KO'd Fury imo but got a 20 count lol
 
Lol. I legit thought about tagging you in here. Unfortunately that's going to be a no for me, on Lee dog.

Here is why:
I believe that there are core values of good men that transcend time. I am allowed to define what I consider to be a great human being. I don't have to have the same or lower standards that other people may have.
There are plenty of examples from Lee's generation that knew and believed that a concept like majority rule sovereignty does not supercede human rights. We are talking about a genocide and oppression that lasted hundreds of years. It should not be whitewashed or it should not be dismissed due to the Confederacy having other catalyst for the succession & war. It was a selfish false sense of regional nationalism.

Lee lived a full & prosperous life. At some point in his life if he had condemned his acts of owning & inheriting slaves and his treasonous actions, than maybe some of his critics could examine him deeper. It wouldn't matter to me though.

In life there are certain decisions, actions, stances you can't come back from. Killing in the name of wanting to violate others is not something I will ever give a pass to. It should be a scarlet letter.

I define people not by doing the right things because they are in fashion. But by doing the right things despite the times.

I don't care if somehow it was legal to own slaves again & all my neighbors had slaves. I wouldn't participate. I would think a million times less of my neighbors. I would only try to align & associate with men who also recognized how fk'ed it is to engage in this reprehensible behavior. I enjoy people who can think for themselves and stand on their principles despite being surrounded by idiots & sheep.

I would understand your point if there wasn't a rich history of religious sects, human rights advocates, abolitionist, medical professionals, & just ordinary citizens who still despite the "norm" called it for what it was.

Then you may even be able to forgive ignorance to a point. But after interacting with human beings & seeing that they had feelings, emotions, families, mental capacity, & the same abilities as everyone else.....yet you still choose to ignore these fact to support "tradition." Not to mention still propagate the disinformation of them not being full humans (after knowing you could procreate with them as well smh).
Nah thats a POS in my book.
Lol. I legit thought about tagging you in here. Unfortunately that's going to be a no for me, on Lee dog.

Here is why:
I believe that there are core values of good men that transcend time. I am allowed to define what I consider to be a great human being. I don't have to have the same or lower standards that other people may have.
There are plenty of examples from Lee's generation that knew and believed that a concept like majority rule sovereignty does not supercede human rights. We are talking about a genocide and oppression that lasted hundreds of years. It should not be whitewashed or it should not be dismissed due to the Confederacy having other catalyst for the succession & war. It was a selfish false sense of regional nationalism.

Lee lived a full & prosperous life. At some point in his life if he had condemned his acts of owning & inheriting slaves and his treasonous actions, than maybe some of his critics could examine him deeper. It wouldn't matter to me though.

In life there are certain decisions, actions, stances you can't come back from. Killing in the name of wanting to violate others is not something I will ever give a pass to. It should be a scarlet letter.

I define people not by doing the right things because they are in fashion. But by doing the right things despite the times.

I don't care if somehow it was legal to own slaves again & all my neighbors had slaves. I wouldn't participate. I would think a million times less of my neighbors. I would only try to align & associate with men who also recognized how fk'ed it is to engage in this reprehensible behavior. I enjoy people who can think for themselves and stand on their principles despite being surrounded by idiots & sheep.

I would understand your point if there wasn't a rich history of religious sects, human rights advocates, abolitionist, medical professionals, & just ordinary citizens who still despite the "norm" called it for what it was.

Then you may even be able to forgive ignorance to a point. But after interacting with human beings & seeing that they had feelings, emotions, families, mental capacity, & the same abilities as everyone else.....yet you still choose to ignore these fact to support "tradition." Not to mention still propagate the disinformation of them not being full humans (after knowing you could procreate with them as well smh).
Nah thats a POS in my book.
I just logged on.

Well, you know, he didn’t own slaves. And he freed the inherited slaves of his father in-law after the debts of the estate were satisfied, as was his duty as an executor. Sooooo. In addition to that, you also know, he is on record saying multiple times that if it was in his power, he would’ve freed all the slaves, and this was prior to going to war.

As an aside, you also know, a minuscule percentage of the men who fought in the war itself, actually fought to enslave their fellow man.

The man, after war, was a beacon of unity for the entire country. A county who lost more than 600,000 people, a total greater than all of our subsequent wars combined. He was revered for good reason by both northerners and the southerners for his efforts to bring healing. There’s a reason Churchill called him the greatest American who ever lived and multiple Presidents held him in such esteem. Yes, he was a man of his time, but he was a great man of his time.

But we’ve been through this about 100 times.

I was hoping you broken free from the clutches of the reductionist historical view you clung to in the past. Keep digging my friend.

I will say this, you’re getting a little less rigid which is progress. Winks*
 
I just logged on.

Well, you know, he didn’t own slaves. And he freed the inherited slaves of his father in-law after the debts of the estate were satisfied, as was his duty as an executor. Sooooo. In addition to that, you also know, he is on record saying multiple times that if it was in his power, he would’ve freed all the slaves, and this was prior to going to war.

As an aside, you also know, a minuscule percentage of the men who fought in the war itself, actually fought to enslave their fellow man.

The man, after war, was a beacon of unity for the entire country. A county who lost more than 600,000 people, a total greater than all of our subsequent wars combined. He was revered for good reason by both northerners and the southerners for his efforts to bring healing. There’s a reason Churchill called him the greatest American who ever lived and multiple Presidents held him in such esteem. Yes, he was a man of his time, but he was a great man of his time.

But we’ve been through this about 100 times.

I was hoping you broken free from the clutches of the reductionist historical view you clung to in the past. Keep digging my friend.

I will say this, you’re getting a little less rigid which is progress. Winks*
We debunked the "he didn't own slaves" thing a while back. I'm disappointed we are circling back to that. Your opening statement is also a contradiction. He worked them, owned them, and collected money for their work besides estate debts that were inherited. ....https://www.nps.gov/arho/learn/historyculture/robert-e-lee-and-slavery.htm
There are direct quotes and letters from Lee that reference and prove this above.
If we can't agree on the historical fact that Lee was a legit slave holder there is no point in continuing this topic.

Your heros or history isn't mine. What other racist & biggots thought of Lee is of no concern to me. I am capable of forming my own opinion on somebody. Any man that farms out whole families to work & keeps the money for himself will always be a POS to me. Sorry.

He instigated and led the slaughter that resulted in the division & mass loss of life.
So forgive me for not applauding the fact that he intentionally spilled the 5 gallon bucket of milk but used a single piece of paper towel to clean it up. What a hero.

But I will listen & look into. Besides generic or substanceless nonsense can you specifically list the exact actions, legislation, instructions, & or tasks that Lee did or established that directly contributed to the success of post war America?????? Buzz words & hero worship doesn't count. "Great American" doesn't mean anything and is extremely vague and subjective.
1-???
2-???
3-???
4-???
 
We debunked the "he didn't own slaves" thing a while back. I'm disappointed we are circling back to that. Your opening statement is also a contradiction. He worked them, owned them, and collected money for their work besides estate debts that were inherited. ....https://www.nps.gov/arho/learn/historyculture/robert-e-lee-and-slavery.htm
There are direct quotes and letters from Lee that reference and prove this above.
If we can't agree on the historical fact that Lee was a legit slave holder there is no point in continuing this topic.

Your heros or history isn't mine. What other racist & biggots thought of Lee is of no concern to me. I am capable of forming my own opinion on somebody. Any man that farms out whole families to work & keeps the money for himself will always be a POS to me. Sorry.

He instigated and led the slaughter that resulted in the division & mass loss of life.
So forgive me for not applauding the fact that he intentionally spilled the 5 gallon bucket of milk but used a single piece of paper towel to clean it up. What a hero.

But I will listen & look into. Besides generic or substanceless nonsense can you specifically list the exact actions, legislation, instructions, & or tasks that Lee did or established that directly contributed to the success of post war America?????? Buzz words & hero worship doesn't count. "Great American" doesn't mean anything and is extremely vague and subjective.
1-???
2-???
3-???
4-???

It appears that it least one of those citations ( the 1852 lease agreement in particular) prove Lee did in fact own a slave prior being charged to dispose of his late fathers estate. I guess I was wrong.

I’ve never seen this evidence before, despite your assertion to the contrary. Btw, the article you offered was written this year. Don’t be shifty, it’s not nice.

As afar as he efforts after the war are concerned, his calming influence on the South and his calls for the peaceful reconciliation of the Nation are replete, much more comprehensive and citable than him as a slave owner. Seriously, there is period newspaper article after period newspaper article related to his efforts in healing the nation. One wonders why this is no longer common knowledge?

Are far as this fact goes, here is one article from the same source you used, the parks service. Interestingly enough, it’s a pretty fair article, which is not typical from them.


https://www.nps.gov/arho/learn/historyculture/lee-s-work-for-reunification.htm


Here is the thing, you still have trouble not separating the evil institution from the time period in which he lived. You miss the historical context of his actions. Slavery has been around since time immemorial. Sadly, every race, tribe and tongue has been subject to it. The shift the west took to move from that evil institution happened while the man lived, this matters, despite silly reductionist assertions. Yes, he was a man of his age, but he moved past that time, and he helped a nation do the same. People who can in some way understand the pressure under which he stood, value his actions, and in my opinion, righty applaud them.
 
I distinctly remember seeing a video of Ward rejecting being called black because he's "half white". I can't be bothered to search for it.

Anyway, what a thread this is... Wilder has domestic issues and this thread turns out to be a discussion about race in America. LOL

It’s not the first time a thread gets derailed by fuckin lowlife idiots. Half this site seems obsessed with race, and it’s not the posters that are personally affected by it either
 
It appears that it least one of those citations ( the 1852 lease agreement in particular) prove Lee did in fact own a slave prior being charged to dispose of his late fathers estate. I guess I was wrong.

I’ve never seen this evidence before, despite your assertion to the contrary. Btw, the article you offered was written this year. Don’t be shifty, it’s not nice.

As afar as he efforts after the war are concerned, his calming influence on the South and his calls for the peaceful reconciliation of the Nation are replete, much more comprehensive and citable than him as a slave owner. Seriously, there is period newspaper article after period newspaper article related to his efforts in healing the nation. One wonders why this is no longer common knowledge?

Are far as this fact goes, here is one article from the same source you used, the parks service. Interestingly enough, it’s a pretty fair article, which is not typical from them.


https://www.nps.gov/arho/learn/historyculture/lee-s-work-for-reunification.htm


Here is the thing, you still have trouble not separating the evil institution from the time period in which he lived. You miss the historical context of his actions. Slavery has been around since time immemorial. Sadly, every race, tribe and tongue has been subject to it. The shift the west took to move from that evil institution happened while the man lived, this matters, despite silly reductionist assertions. Yes, he was a man of his age, but he moved past that time, and he helped a nation do the same. People who can in some way understand the pressure under which he stood, value his actions, and in my opinion, righty applaud them.
Nothing "shifty" about it. Its not new information. This has been historically known since the beginning. Also, myself and other posters have linked the same information to you before just in different articles. Its not shifty by posting the latest and best one. Its called actually knowing the subject at hand. We have discussed this topic multiple times prior with these same exact points. In one of the last go rounds I believe posters (including myself) even provided verified statements about Lee from his slaves.
Do you remember that?
Here is another good read....Proof of Lee petition courts to extend ownership of "his slaves" past the original estate debt time table of 5 years...Accompanied by another first hand slave account of him capturing and ordering the beating and torture of free men he wanted to still enslave. Yikes....oh what a cool dude.

Ok, nice at least you are reasonable enough to accept the fact that he was a slave holder. Let's also not skate past the fact that it also debunks " He freed them as soon as the debts were paid."
You can clearly see Lee mentioning and taking claim to their children and slaving them out too, to keep the money. What a great guy.....Put him on a coin.

Healing the nation doesn't mean anything. I'm asking for specific actions he took to make him such a hero post war.
Surrendering after he directly & indirectly got entire generations murdered and calling for peace is a bit of a low bar.

I'm not having trouble with anything. I've explained my stance on not giving people a pass for owning and dehumanizing people despite the times. I dont know, Maybe you are missing it or skating past it like you did for years with the historical fact of Lee being a slave owner.....

Do you acknowledge the fact that many religious sects, abolitionist, scholars, and normal citizens condemned slavery prior to the Civil War?????

I can read that article about Lee healing the nation to see if it specially list his actions & contributions post war.
 
Americans are obsessed by race, like no other country i have ever seen
 
Nothing "shifty" about it. Its not new information. This has been historically known since the beginning. Also, myself and other posters have linked the same information to you before just in different articles. Its not shifty by posting the latest and best one. Its called actually knowing the subject at hand. We have discussed this topic multiple times prior with these same exact points. In one of the last go rounds I believe posters (including myself) even provided verified statements about Lee from his slaves.
Do you remember that?
Here is another good read....Proof of Lee petition courts to extend ownership of "his slaves" past the original estate debt time table of 5 years...Accompanied by another first hand slave account of him capturing and ordering the beating and torture of free men he wanted to still enslave. Yikes....oh what a cool dude.

Ok, nice at least you are reasonable enough to accept the fact that he was a slave holder. Let's also not skate past the fact that it also debunks " He freed them as soon as the debts were paid."
You can clearly see Lee mentioning and taking claim to their children and slaving them out too, to keep the money. What a great guy.....Put him on a coin.

Healing the nation doesn't mean anything. I'm asking for specific actions he took to make him such a hero post war.
Surrendering after he directly & indirectly got entire generations murdered and calling for peace is a bit of a low bar.

I'm not having trouble with anything. I've explained my stance on not giving people a pass for owning and dehumanizing people despite the times. I dont know, Maybe you are missing it or skating past it like you did for years with the historical fact of Lee being a slave owner.....

Do you acknowledge the fact that many religious sects, abolitionist, scholars, and normal citizens condemned slavery prior to the Civil War?????

I can read that article about Lee healing the nation to see if it specially list his actions & contributions post war.

Why are we so worried about what was? We have an estimated 10,000,000 slaves in Africa today. We have the world's second largest religion who won't even outlaw the act of slavery.

That's where we should be spending our time. Not on the people who already gave up slavery.
 
Why are we so worried about what was? We have an estimated 10,000,000 slaves in Africa today. We have the world's second largest religion who won't even outlaw the act of slavery.

That's where we should be spending our time. Not on the people who already gave up slavery.
Make a new thread about it. Don't worry about how I respond to somebody who specifically asked me about Lee. Spend your time how you want to, don't tell me about mine.
 
Nothing "shifty" about it. Its not new information. This has been historically known since the beginning. Also, myself and other posters have linked the same information to you before just in different articles. Its not shifty by posting the latest and best one. Its called actually knowing the subject at hand. We have discussed this topic multiple times prior with these same exact points. In one of the last go rounds I believe posters (including myself) even provided verified statements about Lee from his slaves.
Do you remember that?
Here is another good read....Proof of Lee petition courts to extend ownership of "his slaves" past the original estate debt time table of 5 years...Accompanied by another first hand slave account of him capturing and ordering the beating and torture of free men he wanted to still enslave. Yikes....oh what a cool dude.

Ok, nice at least you are reasonable enough to accept the fact that he was a slave holder. Let's also not skate past the fact that it also debunks " He freed them as soon as the debts were paid."
You can clearly see Lee mentioning and taking claim to their children and slaving them out too, to keep the money. What a great guy.....Put him on a coin.

Healing the nation doesn't mean anything. I'm asking for specific actions he took to make him such a hero post war.
Surrendering after he directly & indirectly got entire generations murdered and calling for peace is a bit of a low bar.

I'm not having trouble with anything. I've explained my stance on not giving people a pass for owning and dehumanizing people despite the times. I dont know, Maybe you are missing it or skating past it like you did for years with the historical fact of Lee being a slave owner.....

Do you acknowledge the fact that many religious sects, abolitionist, scholars, and normal citizens condemned slavery prior to the Civil War?????

I can read that article about Lee healing the nation to see if it specially list his actions & contributions post war.
The lease document is absolutely not something that I’ve been exposed to before.
You being rude doesn’t make it so. I told you it looks like I was wrong and I admitted it( when I get time I’ll examine the source material).

This changes nothing related to the man’s efforts for the nation postwar, the primary reason he was held in such high esteem. I can’t help that you don’t like why people revere/revered the man. You asked for proof and I gave it to you. He was a shining light post war. He was one that people could look to, gracious in defeat, humble, eager to begin the reconciliation process. A calming voice in face of immeasurable, pain, and loss for the majority of the nation. One whose call for peace served as an ointment to sooth gaping wounds, giving them time to heal.

As an aside, Do you really think he was venerated because he fought to enslave people and break up a nation? So Kennedy (JFK), Eisenhower, Churchill and so many great men of the past were just simply racist also, they lauded him because he sought to protect slavers and dissolve the union?

Back to my point, I completely understand there are people incapable of processing history from the lens of the time in which it happened, thankfully many of us still can. And without that ability, Washington and Jefferson, both slave holders, for example, become pariah too. There’s nothing sacred, there’s nothing to learn from such a flawed man! “don’t you know what they did”, is the cry. “All of their efforts are tainted!” Most every man from our past will fail under the heavy weight of such a focused gaze. This is the point, maybe or maybe not by you, but of some to be sure. They hate the foundations of western society, this country in particular, and its Natural Law roots. I said this four years ago and sadly look what has happened to the monuments and memories of many of our founders. Thankfully, the pendulum is swinging back, and new day is dawning.



……… Btw the story cited related to the disposition of the Custis estate is highly contested, how it was handled, and particularly the whipping story, etc. Not that it’s relevant to my main point.
 
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