Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Gerbiljiujitsu, May 12, 2014.
Been in the 80's here and my gym has no air, so its been over 100. No one wearing gi's. Will attempt a vid tomorrow.
My issue is that I mostly find myself too far away to get under the guy, hips are too heavy, if the double under is my first attack. Going from over-under setup to a double under finish is much higher percentage though.
I think double under pass is one of these techniques that works better in the gi unfortunately. Guys who are good at the double under pass can wreck your shit.
Again, by no means am I saying this double under counter doesnt work; just that when dudes try it on me, I long step and it works
Stupid simple, but effective. Would it work vs. the belt grip/elbow in the back of the head variation, though? If the opponent keeps your head buried, I mean.
It works, although its tougher to scramble. The key is getting your hips way off the ground to prevent the stacker from getting their head up. You cannot do that when you are sitting on your ass, extended.
The way Osiander shows it is infinitely harder to get to, but it puts your far side arm the opposite direction of a strong stack grip, making a long step much more difficult.
Question on the counter:
Why does the guy getting passed not follow your long step up with his butterfly hook? I'd have to feel the position to get a better idea, but it looks to me like that butterfly hook should be kept sticky and just follow the leg up to go for a sweep.
All of the guys I know who play a lot of butterfly hook bait the longstep actually. If you step away from the hook, they follow you right up with a sticky hook, get underneath you, and sweep. The key to passing them is to do the opposite -- smash the hook down and go to the other side.
Great vid Holt.
I play a ton of butterfly but I would not try to use my butterfly hook in that situation because you have no leverage and range to follow the longstep.
Instead, as I mentioned before, you gotta latch onto that belt and hip switch hard into the guy. If you can stay tight to the belt you are okay IMO. Think of it as a switch v. reswitch battle. The biggest goal is to be the guy who gets ahead of the other guy and gets a tight back control.
Generally speaking I don't like to have both legs on one side like that as I don't think it's that great of a position unless you have the arm locked up between them. Much more typically I will try to counter that low double underhook by pulling my other foot back and going into a crucifix type scenario. Then, as a late defense, I will do the ATOS roll (although you have to make sure your hips are out for that).
It's not really my position so I'm just guessing. But I would think far foot on the mat to post for leverage, near hook lifts up for the reverse sweep. Even if you can't finish it, maybe you can create space to shrimp the near knee back in. I'd have to feel it. It may not be there.
Really I do neither of these against the double under. I just flatten out and take the regular butterfly hooks over the arms. The pass is not going to work well if you let the guy get his butt on the ground while doing it like all these defenses are using. Once the butt is on the ground, the guy is not going to pass, so it's just variations on the defense to me.
That's right, if you want to play butterfly from that position you are going to need to retrieve one of your legs and bring them under your butt. This ties in with going to the crucifix. What often happens when you try that is the guy pulls his arm out, and if you have brought your other leg under your butt, you have lost the crucifix but have an unimpeded butterfly attack on his flank. Typically you will again want to hold the belt in that situation because he will effectively butterfly sweep himself if he tries to longstep from there. But again, if he has maintained an underhook on your far leg, the exact reverse will happen.
Because when someone is sitting on their ass and extending their legs out, the height they can raise their hook is drastically lower than I can longstep. In addition, there is not enough leverage to even impede my longstep because the only thing giving leverage is a single sleeve grip, in which I have a dominant grip on his pants.
You do not want to try to smash when they switch, it compounds the pressure and pins your shoulder down, which will give them the only hope they have to sweep. Against a normal butterfly hook, yes absolutely smash. Against a guy with his legs extended sitting on his ass, just long step. This is why you will never see a person try butterfly guard by extending their legs straight out low to the ground.
Yeah I could see height issues when the hook legs are extended. I am a little taller for my weight class, so usually my legs are kind of bent even in that position. I guess I don't stretch out very far when I get the hooks in for the reason you cited. If I stretch out too far, the guy will step over.
I also keep one hook on each side like normal instead of doing the move as shown. Once my butt is to the ground there, I figure I am safe and will just work to attack an arm. Also the Peruvian Neck Tie is there sometimes.
This is my exact point. You give up a longstep and a shuck when you put both legs on one side and extend.
The way you defend is the way almost everyone defends. I developed my best pass by passing against this defense. It works perfectly when they try to Peruvian or guillotine/ or underhook.
What pass do you like to work from there?
I dont know what to call it. I developed it on my own, so I dont know what people have called it who used it before me. Some kind of modified over under lo pass.
nice vid holt. the version kurt uses is a lot more effective imo.
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