Rumored Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.2] - Chasin´The Wolf ´round the Ring... [Fedor vs Arona]

[gono btw]

Warning: TLDR ... x 3!

Today: [Russian & Japanese MMA Scenes]


MYTH 1 ?: Fedor vs Arona was rigged [Wolf/Volk Han´s interference]
MYTH 2: Hobbery?
MYTH 3: Arona completely outgrappled Fedor.


Given the complexity of this topic, this Decons is gonna be divided into 3 sub-Decons:

Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.1] : I/ Potential Interference ?
Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.2] : II/ Rings´Fight Configuration, Scorin´System & Modus Operandi
Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.3] : III/ Technical Assessment of The Fight - Legacy & Historical Perspective

Why so complex? Because each narrative related to this historical & highly controversial fight leads to others that have to be checked.
On the other side, Rings´Scorin´System & Modus Operandi are 'legendary' complex to decipher.
Overall, it will enable us to assess the evolution of complex Scorin´Systems, Fight Configurations & skill sets.


Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:

Spoiler: DECONS

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-38-re-ass-essin´da-atomic-butt-drop.4084973/

Spoiler: The Day...

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...y-stepped-into-the-ring-at-age-51-46.4008521/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...k-hands-then-gave-ilyukhin-a-hand-15.3864713/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-couture-got-played-by-ilyukhin-9.3866571/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-russian-nhb-scene-rtt-birth-of-a-team.3827439/

II/ Rings´Fight Configuration, Scorin´System & Modus Operandi:

Rings Open Tournament MMA Rules
Rules: 5 minutes / 2 Rounds
In case of Draw after 2 Rounds, 1 more round will be added.

KoK (OW tournament) evolved from Rings´ Mega Battle Tournaments, with some particular evolutions regardin´the Rule Set.

In such an environment like Rings', the OW configuration was balanced with the Rule set & Scorin´System.

That´s why undersized competitors like Hendo, Arona, Tamura, Kanehara... etc.. were truly competitive there.
> 2 natural MWs [Tamura & Hendo] did reach the semi-finals, & Hendo won it all at the end.

1/ Fight Configuration: Majority Decisions - Rule Change:

Jus´to put things into perspective [Fedor vs Arona was ruled MD at the end of the regular time], those KoK Tournaments suffered a rule change from the 1999 Edition to the 2000 one....

Majority Decisions: [Win-Draw-Draw]

> Durin´the Qualifications [1st 2 Rds]: 1 more round required.

> In the Final Rounds : considered a Decision Win [see: Hendo vs Babalu in 1999]

But, in the 1999 Edition, Hendo did beat OG Kanehara in the 2nd Rd via MD [Hendo - Draw x 2]...


2/ Rings´MMA 'Ideology' about the Ground Game:

Here, in Rings Japan, it is essential to understand the true value of a:
- TD
- TDD
- Reversal
- Full Mount
- Guard-passin´
- Submission attempt

Indeed, it was a different ballgame in Rings.
Differently from Vale Tudo, a TD or Full Mount were by no means a 'death sentence'.
1st of all, the stand-up call by the Ref. was a real option & was much quicker [between 45 & 90s, usually].
2nd, Full Mount was arguably not fiercely defended, & could even be 'awaited' since the Ref. often viewed it as the 'last stop' b4 the stand-up call.

The [absence of] GNP Paradigm: Limitatin´the Ground Game?

The mistake here would be to project & reassess this fight in a different Fight Configuration.

Spoiler: Rings Japan - Historical Perspective...

Each market has to satisfy its local audience 1st, which necessarily means buildin´potential stars accordin´ to the local 'universe' of skill sets.
Each MMA Org. tries to target a market, promoting a certain type of 'entertainment' according to its core market.
This choice predetermines what kind of ruleset will be effective or not under this fight configuration.

Sergio Batarelli, IVC´s promotor, once said that the current UFC´s fight configuration is a "joke", "much too watered down compared to the real Vale Tudo tradition."

Hence, Rings or Early Pancrase, for instance, were no less MMA than current UFC.

Akira Maeda founded Rings [Japan] after leavin´ UWF [pro-wrestlin´].
His 'ideology' was to build a new MMA Org. with more emphasis on the grapplin´game (he had a feud about it
in his former Org.).
Several 'teams' (by country) were created, which even led to the creation of some independent MMA Org.,
like Rings Holland (run by Chris Dolman).

RINGS JAPAN :
> Roster: truly International, Japanese fighters bein´a surprisin´ minority.

> Dominant Skill Set: High-Level Grapplers [Pro Wrasslin´world & Judokas collidin´ for the 1st time with a new wave of sambo fighters who would have access to this new market thanks to the end of the Cold War, along with a new wave of Brazilian fighters [mainly BJJ but also Luta Livre]

> Emphasis: Ground Game > Submissions.

Fighters were apparently limited on the ground, due to lack of GNP...

Some fans tend to project this fight under a different Fight Configuration: either Arona or Fedor
would have been more 'dominant' in Pride or UFC...

After some circlin´, once he opted for the full mount, Arona would have been somehow 'forced' to go for an americana...

Well, technically, he had multiple options, since the very beginnin´of each technical sequence on the ground:

> 1st of all, he was not 'forced' to go systematically for the full mount.
He did so because, well, he was a rookie then and was actually respondin´ to his corner´s request:

(@ 8mn52 [2nd Rd] [> See: the 19mn41 version]:
one can hear Mario Sperry urgin´him to pass Fedor´s guard.

> He could have gone for an armbar:

The Ref. kindah messed up @ 10mn58 - Rd 2: he stopped the action while Tiger was visibly goin´for an armbar...

Spoiler

> He could have baited Fedor durin´one of those bridges & gone for a rollin´armbar...
(never saw Tiger goin´for one durin´his whole career...but...could have worked on it with his teammate Nog, one of his go-to-moves... )

See: @ 17mn20 [Rd 3]:

Spoiler: Failed Transition...

The truth is... Zen Machine Sperry was still 'prisoner' of the good ol´ Vale Tudo Paradigms:

[ TD > Secure Position > Stabilize Position > Guard-passin´> Full Mount > Blows/RNC ]

Rings was 1st & foremost a high level transition game on the ground. Contrary to what some fans tend to believe, most of these fighters wouldnt sign for such an MMA Org. without acknowledgin´ that they had to work on their ground game...

See, for instance, what Big Nog did in the same tournament against Tamura:

Spoiler: Big Nog vs Tamura

Same progression to the full mount, apparently..but..out of nowhere, Nog surprises him with a leg lock attack.

Another example:

Here, Cacareco [Luta Livre] fakin´the transition to full mount & goin´for the kneebar,
against OG Kanehara...

Spoiler: Cacareco vs OG Kanehara

A few fights later, Tiger... finally... tryin´ to do things 'different' & surprisin´ Badass Kanehara, his unique kneebar in MMA:

Spoiler: Arona vs OG Kanehara

And this was what the [educated] audience was expectin´: creative transitions on the ground.
Nog didnt get the leg lock, but created conditions for a multi-dimensional offensive game &
potential openings that left Tamura (who was no slouch on the ground: think about it, was only subbed once in his Rings career, fightin´@ OW, & twice in a different Fight Configuration: against the same Nog & Yoshida, in Pride) ... disorientated.

Later in the fight, again Nog made transitions on the ground that surprised Tamura, because of his
non-obvious early attempts.


3/ Rings´Scorin´System :

3 Major Misconceptions:

Obvious one: Rings´& UFC´s Scorin´System were nothin´alike...​

> Ground Control:

TDs & Ground Control, unlike in UFC, were not decisive.
The Ref. would actually let them work on the ground, but no longer than a few seconds, max 90 sec overall.

Here, one might counter this argument with 2 fights:

Spoiler: Rings Mega Battle Tournament 1997 Semifinal: [Dec / 23 / 1997]

Zaza Tkeshelashvili vs Ricardo Morais [UD Zaza]

Edited fight, sadly... but...a priori:
- Zaza only got the TDs & Ground Control
- Morais did nothin´, even on his back, except one reversal...

But... pretty different Fight Configuration: the Ref. in that fight really let them work on the ground,
no quick stand-up...
That was in 1997, tho... By 2000, Rings´Refs were no longer toleratin´those longe inactive sequences...

Spoiler: Rings - 10th Anniversary [08/11/2001]

Badass Kanehara vs Matt Hughes [UD Hughes]

Quite a controversial decision, tbh... Hughes only had Ground Control & TDs in that fight, while Hiromitsu did better on the feet & did work for submissions on the ground...
Could/Should have been minimum a Majority Dec., given Rings´modus operandi...

Fundamental Misconception : Rings would be heavily grapplin´-orientated.​

Because of its particular emphasis on the ground game, people tend to overlook the strikin´ dimension.

But, b4 & after those KoK Tournaments, the Fight Configuration always had a pretty clear bias
towards KOs:

In particular, the Maeda vs Karelin fight, for all its restrictions regardin´the strikin´game:

Spoiler: Maeda vs Karelin - Fight Config.

- Rules: 5 minutes / 2 Rounds
- Rope escape = point deduction
- Knock Down = 2 point deduction
- 6 Point deduction results in automatic TKO loss
- After 2 rounds points will determine the winner/loser
- No Striking on the ground


As Horn pointed at: "RINGS rules takes some getting used to. You have to look at things differently…
You can’t just go out, look for the takedown, pass the guard and get the mount… that doesn’t mean as much as in NHB. You have to control the opponent throughout and hold your own on your feet."

That´s through this prism that some controversial fights, in particular Nog vs Hendo, have to assessed.

A more subtle one: Rings´& Pride´s Scorin´System were quite 'similar'...​

2 essential things to consider here:
> The Scorin´System & its complexity
> The Judges´understandin´of that Scorin´System, & by extension, their MMA 'ideology' [Modus Operandi]

1st of all, while a SD would be the natural outcome of a close fight in Pride, in Rings :
Draw x 3 or W - D x 2 would be the 'natural' outcome for 2 reasons:

1- the lack of GNP made it difficult to finish fights on the ground
2- contrary to the modern 'belief', most of those fighters were either high level, world-class grapplers or fighters who understood the necessity of expandin´their well-roundedness [see: Handy´s or Maurice´s ground game in that tournament]... creative transitions on the ground were often needed to surprise your opponent...

Indeed, the next step here could be a better qualitative understandin´of their modus operandi, jus´like we tried
to do in that other Decons about Pride´s most controversial fight, SAKU vs Mezger...


a/ Judges:

Rings, jus´like Pride, employed Judges from different nationalities:
Country Managers like Chris Dolman [Rings Holland] & Pogodin [Rings Russia] would more often than not serve as Judges, other highly hespected martial artists too [Jon Bluming, for instance > see Babalu vs Tamura]

Here, 3 Judges at ringside:

Regular Time:

Nishi Yoshinori: 20-19
Toshio Fujiwara: 20-20
Shin’Ichiro Okawa: 20-20

Extra Round:

[10-9] x 3

Confirmation: the extra round is indeed the decisive one.

Spoiler: Judges of The Fight

Shin’Ichiro Okawa [JAP] :
(Representing Tokyo Office)

> No info. yet [workin´on it]


Toshio Fujiwara [JAP] :

Spoiler

> Background:
- Former Kickboxer. 141 Pro fights [126 W - 99 KO]
- Founder of Fujiwara Dojo

> Career - Highlights:
- 1st non-Thai to win a national Muay Thai title belt in Bangkok
- 1st ever non-Thai stadium LW Champion in 1978


Nishi Yoshinori [JAP] :

Spoiler

> Background:
- Judo [under Masahiko Kimura]
- Daido-Juku Kudo [Judo & Karate]
- Kyokushin Karate
- Founder of Wajyutsu Keishukai MMA Dojo

> Career - Highlights:
- Competed in early Rings [shoots: vs Willie Peeters & Peter Dijkman]
- Winner of the Hokutoki OW Tournaments (1984 & 1985) [proto-MMA]
- Winner of the 1994 Lumax Cup [proto-MMA]
- Fought Hickson @ Vale Tudo Japan 1994
- Became Judge in Pride.


Now, it´s gettin´interestin´... Nishi Yoshinori would be later involved in [arguably] Pride´s most controversial decisions, too:

Vitor Gracie vs Heath Herring
SAKU G. vs Mezger

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/page-3

Similarities, here: [SAKU G. vs Mezger]

> OW fight [controversial weight difference, tho... 6 lbs...]
> Close fight.
> Controversial regular time endin´ [Draw x 3 that could/should have led to an extra round]...
> A fighter [SAKU] arguably finishin´the fight a lil bit stronger...


b/ Qualitative Difference between the 2 Scorin´Systems:

[See: Next Post]

 

[gono btw]

b/ Qualitative Difference between the 2 Scorin´Systems:

While Pride´s Scorin´System relies heavily on the 'Effort to finish the fight' paradigm,
the modus operandi in Rings, & specifically durin´ those KoK tournaments, was qualitatively different:

Strong, potentially decisive, technical sequences that would sway the Judges in Pride [at least potentilly 2/3 of them] would hardly 'impress' Rings´Judges:

In the same KoK Tournaments:

- Hendo vs Babalu [1999]:

While Babalu dominated on the feet with strong low kicks (Hendo did score with some punches, tho...), Hendo had a pretty tight choke (that even made Babalu give up on the top position) at the end of the fight, that could/should have sealed the deal:

Spoiler

Basically, Hendo had a combo of 3 parameters (!):
> Weight Difference 'criterion'
> Most Decisive technical sequence of the fight [tight submission attempt]
> Stronger Finish in the last round...

Well, that only earned him a Majority Dec. [W-D-D], not even a SD.

Spoiler: Report...

Dave Meltzer: "In the judges criteria for the show, it was stated that a weight difference of more than 10 kilograms (22 pounds)should be taken into consideration when rendering a decision, but it wasn't made clear how much that should be emphasized when rendering the decision.
The belief is the judges gave Henderson the decision based on being close enough while giving away so much weight, and that may have played a part in the Renato Babalu final, although nobody booed that decision."

- Nog vs Hendo [1999]:

Another controversial fight, where the Ref. stopped Nog´s most legit sub. attempt [armbar] near the ropes...
While Hendo dominated on the feet [boxin´& knees in the clinch], that legit sub. attempt couldnt grant Nog any shot at a Draw or even a MD.


- TK vs Hasemann [2000]:

In the 1st Rd, Haseman got a legit armbar attempt (impossible to sub TK in MMA, tho... only in ADCC...see: vs JJ Machado)...

Spoiler

...that could have granted him the victory, a la Ronin vs Takase in Pride... but he noticeably faded in the 2nd Rd & could only secure a Draw at the end of the regular time.
Then, he progressively faded in the Extra Round, & the fight was finally scored [a rare] SD.


Overall, these 3 technical sequences were much more legit than anythin´attempted durin´the Fedor vs Arona fight,but... still...none of them could decisively sway them Judges...

This pretty much disqualifies any 'hobbery' narrative, since those Judges´modus operandi are what truly matters here: a fight has to be assessed & scored accordin´to its scorin´system.

Doin´otherwise would be like scorin´ Nog vs Ricco accordin´to UFC´s Scorin´System, makes naturally no sense...:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PR...og-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157#oB7oV0UZVZBhb1wR.99

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...roversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/[/


c/ Similarity? : Genesis of the Weight Difference 'criterion':

1st of all, one major confirmation: Yes, the Weight Difference 'criterion' was involved (didnt start in Pride...).

That 'criterion' is for sure MMA´s most nebulous concept, by far...

Ryogaku Wada... Yuji Shimada...Yoshinori Nishi... all of them were in Rings b4 Pride.
Wada & Shimada were already Refs there, while Nishi fought against the likes of Willie Peeters.
Wada is also known as the creator of Rings´KoK Tournament´s rules.

Nishi became a Ref. in Pride, while Shimada recruited Hume [beginnin´of Jan. 2000, right at Pride Grand Prix 2000 Opening Round]...
On the other side, Hume had no experience whatsoever with Rings, but was a Pancrase Vet., which had a similar Fight Config.

Spoiler: Matt Hume - Interview [2000]

By James Hirth

JH: You are a judge at the Pride events in Japan correct?
MH: Yeah I've been to the last 4 events as a judge.

JH: How did you get involved with Pride?
MH: They requested that I come over and judge and I did.

JH: That simple huh? You were just contacted and went over there?
MH: Yeah, Yuji Shimada is the head referee over there.
I actually heard a couple different stories as to why they contacted me.
The Shooto Organization had recommended me to them because Enson Inoue, who was the Shooto Heavyweight Champion, went to fight for Pride. Also Kawasaki , who is one of the matchmakers for Pride.
I brought over a lot of guys to work with him and Munabu Takashima for bringing the Japanese fighters over to Abu Dhabi.
So he also recommended me to Yuji and Yuji emailed me and asked if I would come over and judge.

Note: the followin´part is purely hypothetical. The few Key Actors like Maeda, Wada, Nishi, Shimada, Hume... are the only ones who can indeed demystify that complex 'criterion', but...sadly... they are rarely interviewed, & this topic is obviously much too complex to be brought up randomly...
This part of the Decons will probably evolve, you are encouraged to have a dialectical approach here: like all Decons, the main objective here is not to give definitive answers, but to question the Question...

Hence, let´s try to deconstruct that holy 'criterion'...

The Art of Adaptin´a Scorin´System to a Specific Fight Configuration​

As I´ve already pointed at, fights in Rings were more often than not pretty close ones (for the reasons I stated above). Thus, tryin´to deconstruct the influence of that Weight Difference 'criterion' there seems much too complex.
A more sensible approach would be to do it through that organic link I was referrin´to: understandin´ Pride´s modus operandi would potentially give the 'code' to decypher Rings´...

Let´s go backwards, then...

Pride had 2 eras, technically: pre & post Pride 13, where knees & kicks to the head on a downed opponent were suddenly allowed...
This alteration of the Fight Config. had a drastic influence on the game, evolution of the skill sets, but also on the viability of the OW Config.
Extractin´the Weight Difference 'criterion' out of the equation may enable us to have a clearer understandin´of the realistic competitiveness @ OW.

1. 'Effort to Finish the Fight': Main Paradigm. A strong technical sequence could be decisive in a close fight. Limited options OW, the lil man´s [striker or not] path to victory is realistically via grapplin´ [ See: Vitor Gracie vs Herrin´ / Mousasi vs Hunto / Wand vs Hunto]
2. Slidin´Scale: Theorethically, a strong dominance in the 1st criterion could seal the deal, but... even 'exemplar' case studies like Hunto vs Wand [Split Dec.] showed that them Refs could be divided on that specific topic. Even Hume, who used that angle when he assessed the Nog vs Ricco decision, seemed to diverge from that perspective when he was commentatin´the Ronin vs Takase fight [another Split Dec.]
3. 'Damage': Visible one, strikin´-wise [cut, bruises], but also grapplin´-wise [tight sub.]. Damage via leg kicks: relevant too., but also the reactive one [essential & subtle @ OW]. Size difference implies a difference in power & strength. While the undersized fighter could do some legit damage in normal conditions, @ OW his strikes may be perceived as non-threatenin´, & his sub. attempts considered not that tight if his opponent can get himself out of them by sheer strength...
4. Combo: Combo of 2 dominant criteria, essentially linked, technically.
5. 'Standin´Combos': Problematic reach difference & difficulty for the undersized fighter to close the distance. Price to pay when he does so, even though the lil man may have a speed advantage in order to overcome this configuration.
6. 'Ground Control': Basic one not rewarded [L&P... See: Hoyce vs Takada], considered 'neutral'. Dominant one rewarded [guard-passin´& effort to get to a more dominant position]
7. 'TD & Defense': TDs & TDD do count but lowest criterion, indeed...Size difference makes it difficult to get the TD or avoid [overpowerin´] reversals. Difficulty to get the TD @ OW / The bigger Opponent´s slams can have some tricky & disproportionate outcome that may link this criterion to the 1st one
8. 'Aggressiveness': Marginal criterion since intrinsequely linked to Criterion 1 & 3.
9. 'Stronger Finish' ['Unwritten' Rule]: Since not judged round by round, a Stronger Finish might have a decisive influence on the final scorin´...but... this 'hidden' criterion has to be balanced by the Main criterion [see Minowaman vs Hyan]

Note: Undersized Fighters [Size difference: > 15 Kg/33 lbs @ HW > 10 kg/22 lbs @ MW] had then the choice to allow or not knees or kicks to the face while bein´ in the "4 points" position...

1. 'Effort to Finish the Fight': Grapplin´bein´ the most realistic path to victory also means bein´more exposed to knee/soccer kick on the ground due to the necessity of gettin´the TD.
2. 'Damage': Knee/soccer kick on the ground are real game-changers, especially @ OW....
3. 'Standin´Combos': Same Configuration.
4. 'TD & Defense': Idem.
5. 'Ground Control': Lookin´for dominant positions on the ground can lead to easier reversals from the bigger opponent. Scrambles on the ground can also momentarily expose the lil man.
6. 'Aggressiveness': Threat of soccer kicks/knees & reversal makes it more risky to gamble for a TD/Sub or even guard-passin´.
7. 'Stronger Finish' ['Unwritten' Rule]: Same Configuration.

Despite that organic link, a necessary evolution in terms of criteria has to to considered here. Pride evolved & incorporated different NHB/Proto-MMA 'ideologies'.
Rings was part of that evolution, but... some subtle qualitative differences molded a slightly different Scorin´ System & its modus operandi...
Assessin´ Rings´Judges´modus operandi durin´ those KoK Tournaments, some potential criteria can be put into perspective...

1. 'Effort to Finish the Fight': Was already the Main Paradigm [See: Rings USA´s presentation]... but... Qualitative Difference with Pride´s Strongest Technical Sequence that could potentially decide the fight. A strong one in Rings was not considered that decisive [See: TK vs Haseman].
2. Slidin´Scale: contrary to Pride´s slidin´s scale, Rings´ was much less 'abrupt'.
3. Combo: Pride´s combo of the 2 dominant criteria could be potentially a combo of 3 in Rings.
4. Damage: hardly belonged to Rings´ 'ideology' in terms of Scorin´ [historical progression: 1st era > limited strikin´on the feet & on the ground / KoK era > limited strikin´on the ground]. 'Damage' singled out as a criterion was probably the result of Vale Tudo[IVC]/NHB´s influence in Pride.
5. Damage: potentially 'diluted' in the 'Effort to Finish' criterion...
6. 'Dominance': Qualitative assessment of the technical sequences, how a fighter evolved durin´the fight & tried to implement an offensive game on the feet or on the ground.
   
7. 'Duration': Qualitative difference with Pride´s 'Stronger Finish'. To convince them Judges & earn more than a Draw x 3 or W-D-D, a steady performance durin´the whole fight was required. The Stronger Finish was de facto not decisive [See: Hendo vs Babalu].
8. 'Standin´Combo': Overlooked, the Stand-up part can explain some controversial decisions [See: Hendo vs Nog]. Historically, in Rings´point system, a KD had more value than a rope escape (2 pts vs 1).
9. 'Defense': On the other side, D. was already valued, especially [technical] reversals, jus´like in Pride [see gif: Maeda´s rare reaction at ringside while Maurice was reversin´Van Arsdale...]
   
10. 'Ground Control': Problematic. Had much less value [pre-KoK, one contradictin´example: Moraes vs Zaza]... Overall, Ground Control cant be technically viewed as decisive, like in UFC or Vale Tudo for instance, but could be a potential component of the 'Duration' criterion, which technically implied some Ground Control sequences.

These 3 graphs show the potential realistic competitiveness @ OW, but... without the Weight Difference 'criterion' ´s influence...



> A Problematic 'Criterion'...

> Possible Genealogy of the Weight Difference 'Criterion'...

[See: Next Post]

 

[gono btw]

A Problematic 'Criterion'...
​

As a matter of fact, this 'criterion' has always been by far the most misunderstood MMA concept ever.
Be it in Rings or Pride, the most legit NHB/MMA Analysts were always unsure about it, & had only a mere intuitive knowledge regardin´its influence on the Scorin´System.

Spoiler: Historical Perspective - Rings´ Modus Operandi

DAVE MELTZER:
"In the judges criteria for the show, it was stated that a weight difference of more than 10 kg (22 lbs) should be taken into consideration when rendering a decision, but it wasn't made clear how much that should be emphasized when rendering the decision.
The belief is the judges gave Henderson the decision based on being close enough while giving away so much weight, and that may have played a part in the Renato Babalu final, although nobody booed that decision.
This led to questions why it wasn't more of a factor in Tamura vs. Babalu.
In the finals, Henderson squeaked by Babalu, who held a 39 pound weight advantage on him, winning a match that would have been called a majority draw under most judging rules, since scores were 20-20, 20-20 and 20-19."

Spoiler: Historical Perspective - Pride´s Modus Operandi

Stephen Quadros:
"They still had that 10kg handicapping [mentality]. Let's say a fighter was 10 kilos or more lighter
than another fighter. He already had a point in the round, so you basically had to beat him more than someone your own size."

Tim Catalfo [Fighter, Coach, ex-UFC Judge]:
"Kazushi Sakuraba vs Guy Mezger:
However, there is another rule that made for a possible contradiction. If an opponent is 10kg heavier and he wins by a single point, then it is called a draw. "

Spoiler: DAVE MELTZER

"Vitor Gracie vs Heath Herring:
Most reports said this was a bad decision, but two major points are that Belfort was giving
up more than 10 kilograms (22 pounds), which automatically gave him one point, and Herring got a yellow
card, giving him a second point, so Herring may have dominated and still justly loss on points.
Because Belfort was giving up so much weight, he had the option to ban kicking and knees on the ground,
which he did.
[...]People were surprised by the decision, but not overly mad about it."

"Tadao Yasuda vs Masaaki Satake:
Realistically, even though one could say Yasuda imposed his will in that the fight was under his terms, therefore he should have a slight edge, the Pride rules which call for a point if there is a weight difference of more than 22 pounds (difference was close to 70 pounds) should have given the fight to Satake. "

In short, the widespread belief was that, in case of a close fight, the Weight Difference would serve as a simple tie-breaker...
The problem with this narrative: it hardly explains some of the most controversial OW fights [Nog vs Hendo in Rings, Arona vs Fedor, Hendo vs Babalu, Vitor Gracie vs Herrin´etc...]


Decons Threads have evolved since the SAKU vs Mezger one...
4 moments in that progressive evolution:

1. In terms of Fight Configuration , Weight Difference is much too decisive to be considered the mere 6th Criterion in that slidin´scale.
   
2. Weight Difference has a decisive technical influence on all criteria
   
3. Consequently, Weight Difference might potentially be too essential to be a mere criterion.
   
4. Hypothesis: it is hardly a criterion stricto sensu, but rather the prism through which all criteria are assessed.

Naturally, here, one might retort that Hume did confirm it as an official criterion [the 6th] when he explained the Nog vs Ricco Scorin´:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PR...og-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157#oB7oV0UZVZBhb1wR.99

That [embarrassin´] episode needs some context, tho: Hume was kindah 'forced' to justify that decision to a clueless part of the MMA [read: UFC] Community...
But, there was absolutely nothin´ controversial in that decision, one of the easiest Pride fights to score:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/

Consequently, Hume had to go full didactic, & had to make it as basic & understandable as possible.
The Weight Differrence 'criterion', the most obscure MMA concept ever, was quickly brushed off, & became, apparently, the least decisive factor in the equation... a mere tie-breaker...
There was definitely not the place to expand on such a complex topic.

Now, what kind of prism?

Let´s dismiss quickly here an unrealistic [potential] narrative: this is not some kind of 'abstraction' where the Judge would translate the Undersized Opponent´s skill set at equal weight & then assess the fight accordin´to this projection.
This would not be feasible durin´a fight.

Nah... There has to be a different, complex but more realistic & pragmatic approach...

The Qualitative Value of a Technical Sequence​

Hume , while commentatin´ durin´the Ronin vs Takase fight, had already showed that he was less
inclined to reward the most decisive technical sequence of a fight [the closest Effort to finish by KO or submission]...

But...at the same time, while commentatin´durin´ the Hyan vs Minowaman fight, he pointed at somethin´ interestin´:
"I might score the fight in Minowa´s favour...as a fan... but as a Judge, it could be a completely different story..."
& a lil bit later:
"Some of those technical sequences in Minowa´s favour were more to score points than a legit effort to finish the fight"

Those OGs aint really about playin´checkers...

While Minowaman kept trappin´Hyan in the corner of the ring & somewhat poundin´him, at least clearly outstrikin´him, volume-wise (somethin´that would warrant a 10-8 a la BJ vs Fitch Round 3, in UFC...), Hume was there givin´a completely different readin´ of that technical sequence...

Spoiler: Hyan vs Minowaman - Last Round - Final Sequence

Relatin´it to the Scorin´System´s main paradigm [Effort to Finish...], that sequence was suddenly appearin´ qualitatively downgraded...

After havin´established & qualified the potential criteria, we´ve jus´got our last part of the Equation:
the Qualitative Value of a technical sequence.



NEXT POST: End of the OP:

Influence of the Weight Difference... 'parameter'​

 

[gono btw]

Influence of the Weight Difference... 'parameter'​

No longer a 'criterion', it will be indeed referred as a parameter, from now on...

The 3 Graphs enabled us to acknowledge the potential competitiveness @ OW in 3 specific Fight Configurations, Weight Difference bein´out of the Equation.
The 27th Decons about SAKU vs Mezger had already enabled us to develop a somewhat intuitive understandin´ of that nebulous 'criterion'... but... a more comprehensive, systemic understandin´was indeed lackin´.

1/ Strikin´-wise:

When a natural WW faces a natural LHW/HW, the difference in power & chin implies a different assessment of the technical sequences.
Otherwise, the handicap would be too severe to make it competitive.
In particular, in terms of scorin´, the major criteria [sub-criterion: Effort to Finish by KO] & [Damage] would be literally out of reach for the lil man.

For instance, this SAKU kick:

Spoiler: SAKU vs Mezger

...could do some legit damage at equal weight, & potentially qualify for the main criterion [Effort to Finish by KO]. But, due to the size difference, a purely quantitative approach would deny this readin´, & these technical sequences would then probably only qualify for minor criteria: [Standing Combo] & [Aggressiveness]

In particular, while the main criterion implies an 'Effort' to finish the fight, the lower one [Aggressiveness] only requires a qualitatively lower technical sequence: 'working to finish the match'.

At equal weight, such a technical sequence would probably do enough Visible Damage to get a higher reward, scorin´-wise... But @ OW, its readin´ has to be more subtle, jus´like in the Hyan vs Minowaman final sequence, downgraded by Hume.
That example is indeed relevant here, because of the initial controversial inaccuracy:

• Pride´s Tale of The Tape: Hyan Gracie [5'71 - 186.67 lbs] vs Minowaman [5'74 - 184.44 lbs]
• Mauro then gave a different Config.: Hyan Gracie [5'11 - 200 lbs] vs Minowaman [5'9 - 185 lbs]
• but... Hume, who was commentatin´ at ringside, denied & informed that them Judges had got the confirmation that the Weight Difference was > 22 lbs.

Spoiler: Hyan Gracie vs Minowaman - Pride´s [inaccurate] Tale of The Tape...

This fight is interestin´ because it shows that the Weight Difference cant be a 'blind' Equalizer:
a subtle readin´ of the technical sequence has to be required in order to [potentially] re-qualify it, criterion-wise.
Not all technical sequences have to be re-qualified thanks to this parameter, jus´ like Minowaman´s apparent maulin´on the ground didnt quite qualify for the main criterion, despite the Weight Difference.

A look at the Scorin´System can already give an idea of how subtle it can be:
2. Damage:
"Damage may be visible such as a cut or bruised leg, or it may be shown by an opponent’s reaction to a strike such as favoring a leg that has been kicked or turning away from a body shot."

The concept of Reactive Damage is already acknowledged, at equal weight, but a reactive one @ OW has to be more subtle:



Mezger suddenly changed his pace after the kick, which indicates that indeed somethin´happened, even though the reaction or Visible Damage were not that spectacular, due to the size difference.
There´s then a thin line between qualifyin´ it accordin´to the 2nd Main Criterion [Damage] or downgradin´it to the lower ones: [Standin´Combo] & [Aggressiveness].

That´s where the Weight Difference can potentially interfere, as a re-qualifier.

Spoiler: Stop-Watch

While commentatin´the Hyan vs Minowaman fight, Hume revealed that Pride Judges would often use the
'Stop-Watch' device to have a better understandin´of a critical technical sequence.
Naturally, Rings´Judges didnt have access to the same sophisticated tool back then in the late 1990s...

On a sidenote, the ring (more than the cage) & the remarkable [almost...religious] focus displayed by them Pride Judges at ringside might explain that subtle understandin´of each technical sequence...

2/ Grapplin´-wise:

We´ve already talked about the realistic path to victory for the lil man: grapplin´ (even for strikers a la Mousasi or Wand).
As showed by the Graphs, the influence of that essential parameter is much more decisive when related to [Effor to Finish by KO] or [Damage], & its influence can be deemed rather 'marginal' for the lower criteria.
That said, a subtle readin´can also be acknowledged here...

Another controversial fight [Vitor Gracie vs Herrin´, @ OW] may bring some new perspectives...
Note: Vitor opted for the Pre-Pride 13 Fight Config.

The problem with all those controversial Pride or Ring fights involvin´ that parameter: they were kindah too close to draw some real conclusive technical assessments.
A fight like the Vitor vs Herrin´ one has a different kind of controversy: the final decision was apparently deemed so 'absurd' that it was mistaken as a bad one.

Spoiler: Vitor Gracie v Herrin´

Overall:

- Heath scored more on the feet with his kicks (some of those were anticipated by Vitor to get the TD, tho...)
- Heath´s domination was not that 'productive': legit ground control, sure, but... limited damage inflicted, several TDs followed by sudden stand-ups... which betrayed a lack of creativity & [relative] aggressiveness in the guard.
- Heath got more TDs
- Both did try to get better positions & improve position on the ground.

- Vitor got better durin´the fight (actually since the end of the 1st Rd), while Heath´s domination progressively faded from Rd 1 to 3
- Vitor inflicted more 'visible' damage [cut above Heath´s right eye]
- Vitor´s reversal was technically & qualitatively better [led to a full mount] than Heath´s (who relied more on pure strength & size difference)
- The technical sequences where Vitor took Heath´s back were qualitatively more significant than the ones where Heath 'inherited' a turtle position from one of Vitor´s transitions on the ground.
- Vitor benefitted from the yellow card.

Note: Heath cheated twice in a specific technical sequence (grabbin´the rope), which got him a yellow card.
This is indeed an important & decisive parameter in the equation, but cant explain the whole situation.

The 3 Judges involved here:
> Yoshinori Nishi
> Kobayashi
> Matt Hume

... were legit experienced Vets (& even one of the Mentors of that Scorin´System [Hume]).
Kindah tricky to disqualify them...

There´s somethin´ singular in that fight, tho... Some kind of symetry...

• Vitor got 3 TDs & 2 Reversals.
• Heath got 4 TDs (the 5th one was more Vitor pullin´guard) & 2 Reversals.
  
• Vitor´s dominant positions: 4 x [side control] - 3 x [back control - turtle position]
• Heath´s dominant positions: 4 x [side control] - 2 x [back control - turtle positions] - 1 x [back control - hooks in] - 1 x [back-take] - 1 x [full mount]

In terms of quantitative approach, Vitor´s dominant positions on the ground were relatively brief, as expected (the lil man always has a tremendous hard time to secure those positions), while Heath´s dominant one lasted some 2mn30s, while doin´limited damage (to the point where he stopped punchin´& chose to use slaps...).
Kindah tricky to score, right?

In the same perspective, a subtle readin´can give a potentially different scorin´: while Vitor´s reversal was more technical, Heath realistically got them due to the size difference:

Spoiler: Vitor Gracie v Herrin´ - Reversals

A simplistic Scorin´System would only consider the quantitative approach, but here the Weight Difference parameter may provide a different readin´ & give the qualitative nod to the smaller man.
The same logic could be applied here, regardin´the effective ground control: the Weight Difference parameter could potentially re-qualify those technical sequences.

• Vitor could only briefly secure those dominant positions on the ground...
  
• While Heath achieved more longer Ground Control without really potentially extendin´it to the 2 Main Criteria.
  
• But Vitor´s positions were qualitatively more dominant ones.

How to score them?
The qualitative difference between:

3. Standing Combos & Ground Control:
Ground control is awarded by achieving dominant positions and holding them.
and:
5. Aggressiveness:
The fighter who is seeking dominant position on the ground and working to finish the match, will score here.

...can be rather problematic @ OW : the near-impossibility to secure those dominant positions can limit the smaller man´s access to that higher sub-criterion, scorin´-wise...
By extension, [Aggressiveness] seen as 'Workin´to finish the fight' can lead to multiple readings here:
the smaller fighter can briefly secure a submission [perfect technique applied], but the bigger man can brush
it off as if it were nothin´ [power-slam to get out of a triangle, for instance].

Denyin´ a potential scorin´ via [Effort to Finish the Fight by Sub] & downgradin´it to the lower criterion [Aggressiveness > "workin´to finish the fight"] would drastically reduce the undersized fighter´s perspectives, scorin´-wise...

There are indeed several potential influences of the Weight Difference parameter, but... all technical sequences are not equal, & any re-qualification can hardly be 'blind'.


Overall:



... while Rings´ own Scorin´System, even though it did inspire Pride´s, presents a different level of 'maturity' [see: Damage criterion, for historical & 'ideological' reasons...] &, consequently, different needs in terms of Weight Difference´s potential interference:



That distinct architecture explains why the Weight Difference parameter was necessarily less decisive in Rings, since undersized competitors could be more competitive there.
The Standin´ part of the fight, & its inherent ramifications through the main criteria [sub-criterion: 'Effort to Finish by KO'], [Dominance] & [Duration], was by itself justifyin´the use of the Weight Difference parameter to make that OW Configuration a viable option.

The Config. there was much more balanced, the undersized fighter had indeed better chances to win it all [see Hendo @ KoK 1999].

That could explain why the Weight Difference parameter didnt need to have the same decisive influence [see: Hendo vs Babalu, Arona vs Fedor]



NEXT TIME:

Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 39.3] : III/ Technical Assessment of The Fight - Legacy & Historical Perspective

 

[jeff7b9]

Here is the fight if anyone wants to watch it:



I Appreciate the in depth breakdown.
Thanks Gono

This fight is highly misunderstood and used to attempt to discredit Fedor by his haters.

My understanding is that he won pretty fair and square by the rings rules by winning the overtime period, but I haven’t watched the fight in years. Rings was weird as hell.

Just rewatched the OT, Fedor has two guillotine attempts. Arona had one takedown, he got mount after a scramble, went for and Americana and Fedor swept him but chose to stand instead of stay in guard.

after standup Fedor pulls guard with guillotine attempt #2.

As I recall the sub attempts weighed higher than top position/control and there was no striking to face allowed by ring on the ground (is this right gono?) hence why Fedor got the decision.

 

[Willy Knuckles]

Can't believe I actually read this long ass shit lol. Great breakdown though tbh

 

[gono btw]

Here is the fight if anyone wants to watch it:



Appreciate the in depth breakdown.

This fight is highly misunderstood and used to attempt to discredit Fedor by his haters.

My understanding is that he won pretty fair and square by the rings rules by winning the overtime period, but I haven’t watched the fight in years. Rings was weird as hell.

Can't believe I actually read this long ass shit lol. Great breakdown though tbh

Poor Gono´s still ediitin´, iz gonna take some time, the part related to the Weight Difference Criterion is indeed much more complex.

Special Dedication to @scottjoebob who was waitin´for that 2nd Part.

 

[jeff7b9]

Poor Gono´s still ediitin´, iz gonna take some time, the part related to the Weight Difference Criterion is indeed much more complex.

Special Dedication to @scottjoebob who was waitin´for that 2nd Part.

Gono- can you clarify something for me?


My recollection is that strikes to the head/face were not allowed while on the ground but strikes to the body and legs were ok.

I recall this being a part of the confusion in this fight as the lack of GNP made it so top position was not really that advantageous, particularly if the top guy wasn’t pursuing submissions.


People see a guy in top position and assume he is winning, as that would often be the case in the UFC, but that was not the case in Rings bc of their judging criteria.

(I’m going off memory of old discussions on here from a while back)

 

[Leone510]

 

[gono btw]

Gono- can you clarify something for me?


My recollection is that strikes to the head/face were not allowed while on the ground but strikes to the body and legs were ok.

I recall this being a part of the confusion in this fight as the lack of GNP made it so top position was not really that advantageous, particularly if the top guy wasn’t pursuing submissions.


People see a guy in top position and assume he is winning, as that would often be the case in the UFC, but that was not the case in Rings bc of their judging criteria.

(I’m going off memory of old discussions on here from a while back)

yeah, no strikes to di head, on the ground...

Read that part in the OP:

2/ Rings´MMA 'Ideology' about the Ground Game:

 

[mkt]

Here is the fight if anyone wants to watch it:



I Appreciate the in depth breakdown.
Thanks Gono

This fight is highly misunderstood and used to attempt to discredit Fedor by his haters.

My understanding is that he won pretty fair and square by the rings rules by winning the overtime period, but I haven’t watched the fight in years. Rings was weird as hell.

Just rewatched the OT, Fedor has two guillotine attempts. Arona had one takedown, he got mount after a scramble, went for and Americana and Fedor swept him but chose to stand instead of stay in guard.

after standup Fedor pulls guard with guillotine attempt #2.

As I recall the sub attempts weighed higher than top position/control and there was no striking to face allowed by ring on the ground (is this right gono?) hence why Fedor got the decision.

Fedor lovers and their confirmation bias...

 

[jeff7b9]

Fedor lovers and their confirmation bias...

I’d consider myself fairly Fedor indifferent.

If you have an assessment of the fight based on the Ring rules and scoring criteria feel free to share.

 

[Stump]

This thread is impossible to read, regardless of length.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[divisable]

Dude please apply your high IQ and analytics to something more important than this. The world needs help.

 

[scottjoebob]

Special Dedication to @scottjoebob who was waitin´for that 2nd Part.

It's like it was a Christmas present .

 

[TR1]

Here is the fight if anyone wants to watch it:


This fight is highly misunderstood and used to attempt to discredit Fedor by his haters.

My understanding is that he won pretty fair and square by the rings rules by winning the overtime period, but I haven’t watched the fight in years. Rings was weird as hel

There is actually no controversy at all, Fedor critics are just brainless as usual.

Simple question- why did Fedor repeatedly give up positions to attempt guillotine chokes, something he has pretty much NEVER otherwise done in his career?
Because the rules favored activity and trying subs.

It really isn't rocket science, and Arona lost because all he did was lay there.

 

[BoxingMMA]

This is insane

 

[gono btw]

This thread is impossible to read, regardless of length.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Helax, mate...Iz Normal...

Must mean that it´s...

Spoiler: either...

Spoiler: or...

Dude please apply your high IQ and analytics to something more important than this. The world needs help.

Then we´ll have to face that essential question:

Is Gono...

Spoiler: The Hero We Need...

Spoiler: or The One We... Deserve...

This is insane

Nah... This is a... Decons.

Nuff´Said.

Spoiler

 

[kflo]

Here is the fight if anyone wants to watch it:



I Appreciate the in depth breakdown.
Thanks Gono

This fight is highly misunderstood and used to attempt to discredit Fedor by his haters.

My understanding is that he won pretty fair and square by the rings rules by winning the overtime period, but I haven’t watched the fight in years. Rings was weird as hell.

Just rewatched the OT, Fedor has two guillotine attempts. Arona had one takedown, he got mount after a scramble, went for and Americana and Fedor swept him but chose to stand instead of stay in guard.

after standup Fedor pulls guard with guillotine attempt #2.

As I recall the sub attempts weighed higher than top position/control and there was no striking to face allowed by ring on the ground (is this right gono?) hence why Fedor got the decision.

The first question is should it have gone to overtime though.

curious as to what @gono btw says. If he said it already in this thread I missed it.

 

[jeff7b9]

The first question is should it have gone to overtime though.

curious as to what @gono btw says. If he said it already in this thread I missed it.

regarding question 1)
-I believe Gono stated it was a majority draw at the end of regulation.
- I won’t comment on whether that is a fair assessment of the ring rules because they are weird as shit and I don’t know them well enough.


I’ll add question #2 which is:

Since the rules were so weird does this fight really have much relevance when evaluating an MMA fighter who spent the vast majority of their career fighting under much more standard rules?

(for what it is worth I feel the same way about Pancrase and some Vale Tudo/NHB that didn’t allow closed fist punches)