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Warning: TLDR here...
Today: [JMMA Scene]
MYTH: Wand got 'hobbed' against Hunto.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
1st of all, Tribute to the Original Butt Drop:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
For all you Pervz who clicked... Emblematic fight, but... Controversial decision: some fans tend to forget that Pride´s Scoring System was a complex one (reminder: Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...)
Let´s try to deconstruct a Decision that saw Hunto reactin´like this:
Kindah tricky task, right?
Context: Pride´s Shockwave 2004.
> Wand was supposed to face SAKU G., who got injured, and Hunto stepped in on short notice (2 days).
> Hunto was recoverin´from a right ankle injury.
OpenWeight: Hunto def. Wand [SD] :
I/ Scoring the fight accordin´ to Pride´s [complex] Scoring System.
The criteria are as follows:
1. Effort to finish the fight by KO or Submission
2. Damage
3. Standin´ Combinations & Ground Control
4. TDs & Defense
5. Aggressiveness
6. Weight Difference (15 Kg or more @ HW) (10 Kg @ MW)
These criteria are in order of priority or importance.
They are considered in descending order if a fight goes to a decision.
1. Effort to finish by KO or Submission:
- Strikin´:
Hunto was much closer to get the finish, droppin´him several times.
> Nod: Definitely Hunto.
Because of the size difference, Hunto clearly out-powered him, even droppin´ him with his mere forearm.
- Submission Attempts:
Nothing really threatenin´ here.
Wand attempted:
> 1 rollin´armbar
> 1 Americana,
> 1 [weak] armbar...
...all failed attempts.
> Nod: Wand, here.
Overall: Hunto, decisively. Was closer to finish the fight in Rd 2.
2. Damage:
> Wand did lil damage on the ground, the full mount limitin´ his options.
> Hunto dropped him :
- twice in Rd 1
- once in Rd 2
The damage inflicted via strikin´was more legit than the one via submission attempt.
Wand was arguably on the verge of bein´stopped, at the end of the 2nd Rd.
> Nod: Hunto, decisively.
[SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]
3. Standin´ Combinations & Ground Control:
- Standing Combinations:
They mostly used punches (real 'take-no-prisoner' power shots), a few knees, & a few [soccer] kicks (some barely missed stomps).
Both had their moments in the exchanges, but Hunto obviously out-powered him.
> Nod: Even.
- Ground Control:
With all the TDs he got (6), Wand managed to gain more ground control, and even passed guard several times, up to full mount.
Especially durin´the final Round, Wand secured a legit Ground Control over Hunto, but his tactical option limited the effectiveness of that domination.
Hunto:
Rd 1 [10mn]: 2mn42s
Rd 2: 1mn59s
Rd 3: -
Total = 4mn41s
Wand:
Rd 1 [10mn]: 3mn47s
Rd 2: 1mn50s
Rd 3: 3mn11s
Total = 8mn48s
> Nod: Wand.
Overall: Wand.
[SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]
4. TDs & Defense:
- Wand secured :
> 2 TDs in the Rd 1
> 1 TD in Rd 2
> 3 TDs in Rd 3
- Hunto stuffed:
> 1 TD in Rd1
> 1 TD in Rd3
- Reversals:
> Hunto: one in each Rd (2 in Rd 1), 3 'direct' ones & 1 after a failed americana attempt by Wand.
> Nod: Wand easily here.
[SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]
5. Aggressiveness:
Hunto clearly overpowered him on the feet, but they were both game, both pressed the action.
They both scored on the feet, but Wand was also the one seeking dominant position on the ground,
got Hunto´s back once, failed on the rollin´armbar attempt.
Hunto was mainly defensive on the ground: no subz off his back, but he did try to reverse positions
several times (10 attempts, 3 successful).
Wand also finished stronger in the final Rd, while [a slightly gassed] Hunto finished on his back but... was escapin´the full mount at the very end of the fight.
> Nod: Wand.
Was pretty even on the feet, but Wand was more active on the ground.
6. Weight Difference:
Whether you consider that Hunto was 250 or 275 lbs:
Difference mini. here = 250 - 210 = 40 lbs = 18 kg > 15 kg
> Advantage: Wand.
7. Negative Points – Yellow Cards :
Hunto got one in Round 3.
> Advantage: Wand.
OVERALL:
Hunto clearly got the most important criteria, while Wand mostly got the minor ones.
And here lies the dilemma...
II/ Technical Assessment of the Fight:
While Wand´s camp came up with the right gameplan, they failed to make the right adjustments durin´the fight: Wand kept lookin´for the full mount, while the side mount was a much more viable option, as Mousasi showed a few years later:
Wand never had any real [high level] transitions from the mount (be it armbar or rollin´armbar).
The real damage he could do while optin´for this dominant position, was pretty limited, since he had to stay high to avoid any reversal.
Wand was almost reversed 7 times:
> once in Rd 1
> thrice in Rd 2
> thrice in Rd 3
...& effectively [directly] reversed thrice (once per Round), & once from a failed submission attempt (Rd 1).
[SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]
III/ Legacy of this Fight:
1/ JMMA´s Pressure:
Technically, Wand could have said 'no' to this [rather dangerous &] 'unnecessary' fight @ OW, but, jus´like SAKU G.:
...Seems they all felt 'forced' to never back down.
Pretty safe to say that an episode a la JBJ vs Sonnen was unthinkable in Pride.
On the other side, fighters were obviously less protected.
2/ Evolvin´ Scorin´Systems & Fight Configuration:
This is an interestin´ Fight, indeed. It enlightens the Qualitative Evolution of the Scorin´System that shaped those OW fights, from the previous era [mainly Rings´] to the Modern one .
Pride´s sophisticated Scorin´System implied the possibility of no longer considerin´any further minor criterion if the main ones [damage/effort to finish the fight] were one-sided...
But...this is rather 'theorical', & judges had (and still have, even in the UFC context, for instance...)
their own understandin´& appreciation of these qualitative criteria...
Their own assessment of the damage inflicted & the legit effort to finish the fight is goin´to dictate
their overall appreciation of the fight & its final decision.
3/ The OW Era:
In the Modern Era, fights @ OW (SAKU G. was obviously an anomaly) tend to no longer be realistic.
The undersized fighter has indeed a limited path to victory, mostly via grapplin´ (not everybody´s got Manhoeff´s power...)
Thus, some of those earlier fights have to be reassessed accordin´to this Fight Configuration, & it implies the insertion of 'Quality' Performances ['Quality Losses', for instance... or 'Problematic Wins'] as a new 'value' (by extension, this can lead to a new understandin´ of those early careers...)
CONCLUSION:
> A Close Fight, but No Hobbery:
Hunto´s reaction at the end of the fight was due to his inexperience (3rd fight, havin´started 6 months earlier). Even Vet. Rudimar Fedrigo didnt acknowledge the complexity of its Scorin´System, imagine a newcomer like Hunto...
One of the most controversial decisions ever indeed...
Under the Unified Rules [USA], it´s arguably a Wand win, since he mostly had the Ground Control in that fight.
But under Pride´s [complex] Scorin´ System, a Hunto win is indeed a realistic outcome:
- More damage inflicted on the feet.
- Limited damage received on the ground.
Now, was it a close fight? Yes, indeed. But... no hobbery.
A SD was a realistic outcome, tbh...
> Emblematic Fight:
- Requiem for The OW Era.
- Enlightens the Qualitative Evolution of the Scorin´System that shaped those OW fights .
Today: [JMMA Scene]
MYTH: Wand got 'hobbed' against Hunto.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
We´re closin´the Trilogy on Pride´s most controversial decisions:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/
1st of all, Tribute to the Original Butt Drop:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
For all you Pervz who clicked... Emblematic fight, but... Controversial decision: some fans tend to forget that Pride´s Scoring System was a complex one (reminder: Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...)
Let´s try to deconstruct a Decision that saw Hunto reactin´like this:
Kindah tricky task, right?
Context: Pride´s Shockwave 2004.
> Wand was supposed to face SAKU G., who got injured, and Hunto stepped in on short notice (2 days).
> Hunto was recoverin´from a right ankle injury.
OpenWeight: Hunto def. Wand [SD] :
Hunto was probably 275 lbs, tho...
I/ Scoring the fight accordin´ to Pride´s [complex] Scoring System.
The criteria are as follows:
1. Effort to finish the fight by KO or Submission
2. Damage
3. Standin´ Combinations & Ground Control
4. TDs & Defense
5. Aggressiveness
6. Weight Difference (15 Kg or more @ HW) (10 Kg @ MW)
These criteria are in order of priority or importance.
They are considered in descending order if a fight goes to a decision.
1. Effort to finish by KO or Submission:
- Strikin´:
Hunto was much closer to get the finish, droppin´him several times.
> Nod: Definitely Hunto.
Because of the size difference, Hunto clearly out-powered him, even droppin´ him with his mere forearm.
- Submission Attempts:
Nothing really threatenin´ here.
Wand attempted:
> 1 rollin´armbar
> 1 Americana,
> 1 [weak] armbar...
...all failed attempts.
> Nod: Wand, here.
Overall: Hunto, decisively. Was closer to finish the fight in Rd 2.
2. Damage:
> Wand did lil damage on the ground, the full mount limitin´ his options.
> Hunto dropped him :
- twice in Rd 1
- once in Rd 2
The damage inflicted via strikin´was more legit than the one via submission attempt.
Wand was arguably on the verge of bein´stopped, at the end of the 2nd Rd.
> Nod: Hunto, decisively.
[SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]
3. Standin´ Combinations & Ground Control:
- Standing Combinations:
They mostly used punches (real 'take-no-prisoner' power shots), a few knees, & a few [soccer] kicks (some barely missed stomps).
Both had their moments in the exchanges, but Hunto obviously out-powered him.
> Nod: Even.
- Ground Control:
With all the TDs he got (6), Wand managed to gain more ground control, and even passed guard several times, up to full mount.
Especially durin´the final Round, Wand secured a legit Ground Control over Hunto, but his tactical option limited the effectiveness of that domination.
Hunto:
Rd 1 [10mn]: 2mn42s
Rd 2: 1mn59s
Rd 3: -
Total = 4mn41s
Wand:
Rd 1 [10mn]: 3mn47s
Rd 2: 1mn50s
Rd 3: 3mn11s
Total = 8mn48s
> Nod: Wand.
Overall: Wand.
[SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]
4. TDs & Defense:
- Wand secured :
> 2 TDs in the Rd 1
> 1 TD in Rd 2
> 3 TDs in Rd 3
- Hunto stuffed:
> 1 TD in Rd1
> 1 TD in Rd3
- Reversals:
> Hunto: one in each Rd (2 in Rd 1), 3 'direct' ones & 1 after a failed americana attempt by Wand.
> Nod: Wand easily here.
[SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]
5. Aggressiveness:
Hunto clearly overpowered him on the feet, but they were both game, both pressed the action.
They both scored on the feet, but Wand was also the one seeking dominant position on the ground,
got Hunto´s back once, failed on the rollin´armbar attempt.
Hunto was mainly defensive on the ground: no subz off his back, but he did try to reverse positions
several times (10 attempts, 3 successful).
Wand also finished stronger in the final Rd, while [a slightly gassed] Hunto finished on his back but... was escapin´the full mount at the very end of the fight.
> Nod: Wand.
Was pretty even on the feet, but Wand was more active on the ground.
6. Weight Difference:
Whether you consider that Hunto was 250 or 275 lbs:
Difference mini. here = 250 - 210 = 40 lbs = 18 kg > 15 kg
> Advantage: Wand.
7. Negative Points – Yellow Cards :
Hunto got one in Round 3.
> Advantage: Wand.
OVERALL:
Hunto clearly got the most important criteria, while Wand mostly got the minor ones.
And here lies the dilemma...
II/ Technical Assessment of the Fight:
While Wand´s camp came up with the right gameplan, they failed to make the right adjustments durin´the fight: Wand kept lookin´for the full mount, while the side mount was a much more viable option, as Mousasi showed a few years later:
Wand never had any real [high level] transitions from the mount (be it armbar or rollin´armbar).
The real damage he could do while optin´for this dominant position, was pretty limited, since he had to stay high to avoid any reversal.
Wand was almost reversed 7 times:
> once in Rd 1
> thrice in Rd 2
> thrice in Rd 3
...& effectively [directly] reversed thrice (once per Round), & once from a failed submission attempt (Rd 1).
[SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]
III/ Legacy of this Fight:
1/ JMMA´s Pressure:
Technically, Wand could have said 'no' to this [rather dangerous &] 'unnecessary' fight @ OW, but, jus´like SAKU G.:
So when Sakuraba – who was carrying an injury –was given a choice of experienced 205lb contender Antônio Rogério Nogueira, or a debuting Mexican pro wrestler named El Solar to fight on New Year’s Eve 2003, he had a simple decision to make. But that didn’t mean he wouldn’t rather have taken the easy way out.
“Rogério was the only choice,” he said. “If a rumor spread that I only fought weak opponents,
people would be laughing at me until the era of my grandchildren. I have to avoid that.
We’re both in the middleweight class, but our body types are so different. Well, this is the twin brother
of Rodrigo who’s a heavyweight, right? So then, isn’t Rogerio a heavyweight, too?
I really should’ve gone with El Solar.”
“Rogério was the only choice,” he said. “If a rumor spread that I only fought weak opponents,
people would be laughing at me until the era of my grandchildren. I have to avoid that.
We’re both in the middleweight class, but our body types are so different. Well, this is the twin brother
of Rodrigo who’s a heavyweight, right? So then, isn’t Rogerio a heavyweight, too?
I really should’ve gone with El Solar.”
...Seems they all felt 'forced' to never back down.
Pretty safe to say that an episode a la JBJ vs Sonnen was unthinkable in Pride.
On the other side, fighters were obviously less protected.
2/ Evolvin´ Scorin´Systems & Fight Configuration:
This is an interestin´ Fight, indeed. It enlightens the Qualitative Evolution of the Scorin´System that shaped those OW fights, from the previous era [mainly Rings´] to the Modern one .
Pride´s sophisticated Scorin´System implied the possibility of no longer considerin´any further minor criterion if the main ones [damage/effort to finish the fight] were one-sided...
But...this is rather 'theorical', & judges had (and still have, even in the UFC context, for instance...)
their own understandin´& appreciation of these qualitative criteria...
Their own assessment of the damage inflicted & the legit effort to finish the fight is goin´to dictate
their overall appreciation of the fight & its final decision.
3/ The OW Era:
In the Modern Era, fights @ OW (SAKU G. was obviously an anomaly) tend to no longer be realistic.
The undersized fighter has indeed a limited path to victory, mostly via grapplin´ (not everybody´s got Manhoeff´s power...)
Thus, some of those earlier fights have to be reassessed accordin´to this Fight Configuration, & it implies the insertion of 'Quality' Performances ['Quality Losses', for instance... or 'Problematic Wins'] as a new 'value' (by extension, this can lead to a new understandin´ of those early careers...)
CONCLUSION:
> A Close Fight, but No Hobbery:
Hunto´s reaction at the end of the fight was due to his inexperience (3rd fight, havin´started 6 months earlier). Even Vet. Rudimar Fedrigo didnt acknowledge the complexity of its Scorin´System, imagine a newcomer like Hunto...
One of the most controversial decisions ever indeed...
Under the Unified Rules [USA], it´s arguably a Wand win, since he mostly had the Ground Control in that fight.
But under Pride´s [complex] Scorin´ System, a Hunto win is indeed a realistic outcome:
- More damage inflicted on the feet.
- Limited damage received on the ground.
Now, was it a close fight? Yes, indeed. But... no hobbery.
A SD was a realistic outcome, tbh...
> Emblematic Fight:
- Requiem for The OW Era.
- Enlightens the Qualitative Evolution of the Scorin´System that shaped those OW fights .
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
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http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
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http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-35-the-samurai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-1-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
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http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-29-bj-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-35-the-samurai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/
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