Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 38] - Re-ass-essin´da Atomic Butt Drop...

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by gono btw, Feb 23, 2020.

  1. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    Warning: TLDR here...

    [​IMG]


    Today: [JMMA Scene]

    MYTH: Wand got 'hobbed' against Hunto.


    Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:



    1st of all, Tribute to the Original Butt Drop:

    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/


    For all you Pervz who clicked... Emblematic fight, but... Controversial decision: some fans tend to forget that Pride´s Scoring System was a complex one (reminder: Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...)

    Let´s try to deconstruct a Decision that saw Hunto reactin´like this:

    wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 20 face dec.gif

    Kindah tricky task, right?


    Context: Pride´s Shockwave 2004.
    > Wand was supposed to face SAKU G., who got injured, and Hunto stepped in on short notice (2 days).
    > Hunto was recoverin´from a right ankle injury.

    OpenWeight: Hunto def. Wand [SD] :

    Hunto was probably 275 lbs, tho...

    Tale.png


    I/ Scoring the fight accordin´ to Pride´s [complex] Scoring System.

    The criteria are as follows:

    1. Effort to finish the fight by KO or Submission
    2. Damage
    3. Standin´ Combinations & Ground Control
    4. TDs & Defense
    5. Aggressiveness
    6. Weight Difference (15 Kg or more @ HW) (10 Kg @ MW)



    These criteria are in order of priority or importance.
    They are considered in descending order if a fight goes to a decision.

    1. Effort to finish by KO or Submission:

    - Strikin´:

    Hunto was much closer to get the finish, droppin´him several times.

    > Nod: Definitely Hunto.
    Because of the size difference, Hunto clearly out-powered him, even droppin´ him with his mere forearm.

    - Submission Attempts:

    Nothing really threatenin´ here.
    Wand attempted:
    > 1 rollin´armbar
    > 1 Americana,
    > 1 [weak] armbar...
    ...all failed attempts.

    wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 13 - guard pass full mount sub reversed.gif wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 3 failed armbar wand.gif wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 4 - failed rollin armbar.gif

    > Nod: Wand, here.

    Overall: Hunto, decisively. Was closer to finish the fight in Rd 2.


    2. Damage:

    > Wand did lil damage on the ground, the full mount limitin´ his options.

    > Hunto dropped him :
    - twice in Rd 1
    - once in Rd 2

    The damage inflicted via strikin´was more legit than the one via submission attempt.
    Wand was arguably on the verge of bein´stopped, at the end of the 2nd Rd.

    wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 5 damage.gif

    > Nod: Hunto, decisively.

    [SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]

    3. Standin´ Combinations & Ground Control:

    - Standing Combinations:

    They mostly used punches (real 'take-no-prisoner' power shots), a few knees, & a few [soccer] kicks (some barely missed stomps).
    Both had their moments in the exchanges, but Hunto obviously out-powered him.

    > Nod: Even.

    - Ground Control:

    With all the TDs he got (6), Wand managed to gain more ground control, and even passed guard several times, up to full mount.
    Especially durin´the final Round, Wand secured a legit Ground Control over Hunto, but his tactical option limited the effectiveness of that domination.

    Hunto:
    Rd 1 [10mn]: 2mn42s
    Rd 2: 1mn59s
    Rd 3: -
    Total = 4mn41s

    Wand:
    Rd 1 [10mn]: 3mn47s
    Rd 2: 1mn50s
    Rd 3: 3mn11s
    Total = 8mn48s

    > Nod: Wand.

    Overall: Wand.

    [SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]


    4. TDs & Defense:

    - Wand secured :
    > 2 TDs in the Rd 1
    > 1 TD in Rd 2
    > 3 TDs in Rd 3

    - Hunto stuffed:
    > 1 TD in Rd1
    > 1 TD in Rd3

    - Reversals:
    > Hunto: one in each Rd (2 in Rd 1), 3 'direct' ones & 1 after a failed americana attempt by Wand.

    > Nod: Wand easily here.

    [SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]

    5. Aggressiveness:

    Hunto clearly overpowered him on the feet, but they were both game, both pressed the action.
    They both scored on the feet, but Wand was also the one seeking dominant position on the ground,
    got Hunto´s back once, failed on the rollin´armbar attempt.
    Hunto was mainly defensive on the ground: no subz off his back, but he did try to reverse positions
    several times (10 attempts, 3 successful).
    Wand also finished stronger in the final Rd, while [a slightly gassed] Hunto finished on his back but... was escapin´the full mount at the very end of the fight.

    wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 14.gif

    > Nod: Wand.
    Was pretty even on the feet, but Wand was more active on the ground.


    6. Weight Difference:

    Whether you consider that Hunto was 250 or 275 lbs:

    Difference mini. here = 250 - 210 = 40 lbs = 18 kg > 15 kg

    > Advantage: Wand.


    7. Negative Points – Yellow Cards :

    Hunto got one in Round 3.

    wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 8 yellow.gif

    > Advantage: Wand.

    OVERALL:
    Hunto clearly got the most important criteria, while Wand mostly got the minor ones.
    And here lies the dilemma...

    II/ Technical Assessment of the Fight:

    While Wand´s camp came up with the right gameplan, they failed to make the right adjustments durin´the fight: Wand kept lookin´for the full mount, while the side mount was a much more viable option, as Mousasi showed a few years later:

    hunto vs mousasi 1.gif

    Wand never had any real [high level] transitions from the mount (be it armbar or rollin´armbar).
    The real damage he could do while optin´for this dominant position, was pretty limited, since he had to stay high to avoid any reversal.

    wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 9 buckle.gif

    Wand was almost reversed 7 times:
    > once in Rd 1
    > thrice in Rd 2
    > thrice in Rd 3

    ...& effectively [directly] reversed thrice (once per Round), & once from a failed submission attempt (Rd 1).

    [SEE GIFs in the Posts #2>#6 of This Thread]


    III/ Legacy of this Fight:

    1/ JMMA´s Pressure:

    Technically, Wand could have said 'no' to this [rather dangerous &] 'unnecessary' fight @ OW, but, jus´like SAKU G.:

    So when Sakuraba – who was carrying an injury –was given a choice of experienced 205lb contender Antônio Rogério Nogueira, or a debuting Mexican pro wrestler named El Solar to fight on New Year’s Eve 2003, he had a simple decision to make. But that didn’t mean he wouldn’t rather have taken the easy way out.

    “Rogério was the only choice,” he said. “If a rumor spread that I only fought weak opponents,
    people would be laughing at me until the era of my grandchildren. I have to avoid that.
    We’re both in the middleweight class, but our body types are so different. Well, this is the twin brother
    of Rodrigo who’s a heavyweight, right? So then, isn’t Rogerio a heavyweight, too?
    I really should’ve gone with El Solar.”

    ...Seems they all felt 'forced' to never back down.
    Pretty safe to say that an episode a la JBJ vs Sonnen was unthinkable in Pride.
    On the other side, fighters were obviously less protected.


    2/ Evolvin´ Scorin´Systems & Fight Configuration:

    This is an interestin´ Fight, indeed. It enlightens the Qualitative Evolution of the Scorin´System that shaped those OW fights, from the previous era [mainly Rings´] to the Modern one .

    Pride´s sophisticated Scorin´System implied the possibility of no longer considerin´any further minor criterion if the main ones [damage/effort to finish the fight] were one-sided...

    But...this is rather 'theorical', & judges had (and still have, even in the UFC context, for instance...)
    their own understandin´& appreciation of these qualitative criteria...
    Their own assessment of the damage inflicted & the legit effort to finish the fight is goin´to dictate
    their overall appreciation of the fight & its final decision.


    3/ The OW Era:

    In the Modern Era, fights @ OW (SAKU G. was obviously an anomaly) tend to no longer be realistic.
    The undersized fighter has indeed a limited path to victory, mostly via grapplin´ (not everybody´s got Manhoeff´s power...)

    Thus, some of those earlier fights have to be reassessed accordin´to this Fight Configuration, & it implies the insertion of 'Quality' Performances ['Quality Losses', for instance... or 'Problematic Wins'] as a new 'value' (by extension, this can lead to a new understandin´ of those early careers...)


    CONCLUSION:
    > A Close Fight, but No Hobbery:
    Hunto´s reaction at the end of the fight was due to his inexperience (3rd fight, havin´started 6 months earlier). Even Vet. Rudimar Fedrigo didnt acknowledge the complexity of its Scorin´System, imagine a newcomer like Hunto...
    One of the most controversial decisions ever indeed...
    Under the Unified Rules [USA], it´s arguably a Wand win, since he mostly had the Ground Control in that fight.
    But under Pride´s [complex] Scorin´ System, a Hunto win is indeed a realistic outcome:
    - More damage inflicted on the feet.
    - Limited damage received on the ground.
    Now, was it a close fight? Yes, indeed. But... no hobbery.
    A SD was a realistic outcome, tbh...

    > Emblematic Fight:
    - Requiem for The OW Era.
    - Enlightens the Qualitative Evolution of the Scorin´System that shaped those OW fights .


    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-1-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-2-khabib´s-eastern-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-29-bj-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
    http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-35-the-samurai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/
    https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  2. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    HUNTO - On The Ground :

    wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 5.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 14.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 15.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 16.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 22.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 24.gif


    wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 2.gif wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 4.gif wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 13.gif wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 14.gif
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  3. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    HUNTO - On The Feet:

    wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 6.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 7.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 23.gif

    wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 1.gif

    wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 1.gif




    WAND - On The Feet:

    wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 1.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 7 - TD.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 9 - score + stuffed TD.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 10.gif

    wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 2.gif
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  4. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    WAND - On The Ground:

    wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 8.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 13 - guard pass full mount sub reversed.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 17.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 18.gif

    wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 7 - full mount.gif wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 11.gif

    wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 4 - failed rollin armbar.gif wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 10 - full mount.gif wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 13.gif wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 14.gif
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  5. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    HUNTO:

    0 - wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 4 - guard pass hunto rever.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 27 - replay.gif

    wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 12.gif

    Last Sequence of the Fight:

    wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 17.gif


    WAND:


    wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 2.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 11.gif


    wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 6.gif


    wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 3 back tak.gif wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 7.gif wand vs hunto Rd 3 - 9.gif

     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  6. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    REPLAYS:

    wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 25 - replay.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 26 - replay.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 28 - replay.gif


    wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 15 - replay.gif wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 16 - replay.gif wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 17 - replay.gif wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 19 - replay.gif wand vs hunto Rd 2 - 20 - replay.gif


    wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 30 - replay.gif wand vs hunto Rd 1 - 31 - replay.gif
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  7. stav

    stav Brown Belt

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    Randy Coture’s commentry during the “atomic butt drop” was awesome.

    Bas lost it.

    was a great fight the real winner was the fans.
     
  8. wearetheromans

    wearetheromans Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    My eyes are hurtin' after readin' that
     
  9. Ideanudge

    Ideanudge Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    This guy still living in the 90s
     
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  10. Blanqa Blanqua

    Blanqa Blanqua Gold Belt

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  11. PurpleStorm

    PurpleStorm Brown Belt

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    @gono btw these posts are always hilarious & educational - best way to learn about mma history. Had never known about this atomic butt drop and very last gif delivers. Crazy as fuck. Thanks. By the way, I presume Noguueira beat Sakuraba - what happened in the fight?
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
    Andreh, gono btw and One MMA Fan like this.
  12. ralek4grammy

    ralek4grammy Brown Belt

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    Please point me to the nearest working time machine :D.

    He's a scholar, on a forum with many scrubs. IMO, kids should shut up every once in a while and learn history (this is not a jab at you).
     
  13. ralek4grammy

    ralek4grammy Brown Belt

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    The only thing to make this even better...would bee a lettuce leaf instead, with a tomato on top of it...just imagine: "Sald Mark Hunt".

    Glorious.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
    Typrune Goatley and gono btw like this.
  14. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    gono who´s da boss.gif

    SAKU G.´s loss against LHW Lil Nog was a Quality one, he clearly dominated 2 Rds (even opened a cut!) b4 gassin´ (took the fight while bein´injured)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  15. davidlemonparty

    davidlemonparty Brown Belt

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    Great thread @gono btw your understanding of the pride scoring system is very enlightening.
    I think a lot of people just assume corruption when they see some of the 'controversial' pride results. Probably was sometimes lol but also maybe the nuances escape them. They sure did me at the time. I was a young buck then however.
     
  16. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    gono btw rounds 7 clap thumb.gif

    Indeed, seems like a misunderstandin´, perhaps watchin´em with UFC´s Scorin´Ideology'...
    Ricco or Wand would have gotten the nod there, for sure...
     
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  17. ConorFacts

    ConorFacts Banned Banned

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    î love you gono btw
     
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  18. POWER2

    POWER2 Red Belt

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    I came here fully intending on being a smart ass, but I enjoyed the thread thoroughly. In some ways this scoring system is superior to everything we have to endure today. Anything that incentivizes finishes is always better.
     
  19. POWER2

    POWER2 Red Belt

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    Meanwhile you're thinking about your next "does Proper 12 taste like human piss or cat piss" thread.
     
  20. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    Mighty Gono´s into them....

    ...Suckah!

    gono rocks.gif
     
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