Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 36] - The Best Base... [SPECIAL EDITION!]

Myrddin Wild said:
How about you just cut the sh*t & tell me why Adrian Serrano is on your list of American Wrestlers? I've asked you at least a half dozen times now & granted it was mixed in with a lot of other stuff, but now lets just simplify it & that's the only question on the table & that response right there is the first time you've avoided it as a singular question.

hey, I'm good if he has a legit Collegiate record, but I couldn't find it. All I found is that he's a WWE style guy & it makes me wonder if you made a mistake. Instead of discussing that like civilized people do, you have avoided the question a half dozen timez & went to attacking me directly. Just answer the question & quit playing games. I'm really not enjoying this.
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Anyway, understand: ya wont find this list via google, wiki or whatever.

When I wrote my assessment , I was plannin´to double-check Wrasslers´ performance in 3 essential [traditional] scenes:

> IVC [Brazil]
> WVC [Brazil]
> Rings [Japan]
> IAFC [Russia]

I obviously understood that it was indeed a monumental task, and I wisely stopped @ IVC.

Now, even in IVC, ya have to consider 15 events, and ya wont find much info via google.
Only watchin´the fights. No way out.

Note: I made that list accordin´to 2 main criteria:
> wrasslin´background
> wrasslin´ 'mindset' in the ring

Anyway, I wasnt sure about 4 dudes:
I kept those 2:
Adrian Serrano
John "The Saint" Renken

And discarded those 2:
Johnathan "Big John" Ivey
Wellington Wilkins

+ I included Stiebling, but realistically, shouldnt have, he didnt really have a wrassler 'mindset' in the ring.
(and there´s some context involved too here, @ IVC 14, but dont worry, wont double-check ya here...)
Anyway, 4 victories... didnt wanna look 'biased'.

Overall: 17 dudes. Tryin´ to remember and assess their background and mindset in the ring.

Started to assess IAFC [RUS] too:

IAFC - Absolute Fighting Eurasian Championship
Roman Maseigin [RUS] [Free Style] < Vadim Shevchenko [Shotokan Karate]
Pavel Tigomirov [RUS] [Free Style] < Leonid Efremov [Sambo]
Piotr Tjernov [RUS] [Free Style] < Mikhail Ilyukhin [Sambo]
Pavel Tjetjel [RUS] [Free Style] < Maxim Tarasov [Judo]
Genuadiy Luchnikov [RUS] [Greco-Roman] > Alexei Ilugin [KB]
Vasily Kudin [Wrestling] < Leonid Efremov [Sambo]

IAFC - Pankration Russian Championship 1999:
Nikolai Gudkov [Sambo] < Igor Akhmedov [Wrestling/JJ ?]
Yashchenko [UKR] [JJ] < Nagmudin Usmanov [RUS] [Wrestling]

IAFC - Absolute Fighting Championship 2: Day 2
Joe-Charles [Judo] > Andrey Surikov [Wrestling]
Vasily Kudin [Wrestling] > Gerry Harris [Karate]

IAFC - Pankration Russian Championship 1999:
Alexander Mayorov [Sambo] > Nagmudin Usmanov [Wrestling]
S. Urakov [Uzbekistan] [Pancrase] < Artur Taymashanov [RUS] [Wrestling]

IAFC - Pankration World Championship 1999
Joe Charles [Judo] < Akhtevesian [RUS] [Wrestling]
Darrell Gholar [Wrestling] > Andrey Rudakov [Sambo]
Rasul Uzdenov [Sambo] > Darrell Gholar [Wrestling]
Eduard Vdovenko [?] > Pavel Pogorazdov [Kirgizthan] [Wrestling]
Martin Malkhasyan [Wrestling/Sambo ?] > Vasily Kudin [Wrestling]

IAFC - 1st Absolute Fighting World Cup Pankration
Joe-Charles [Judo] < Nick Nutter [Wrestling]

IAFC - International Pankration Championship: +70kg
Zamirbek Syrgabayev [Kirgizthan] [Boxing] > Pavel Pogorazdov [Kirgizthan] [Wrestling]
Sovet Saliev [Kirgizthan] [Boxing] < Myrzabayev [Kirgizthan] [Wrestling]
Beyshkeyev Beyshkeyev [Kirgizthan] [Boxing] < Pavel Pogorazdov [Kirgizthan] [Wrestling]
Akhtevesian [RUS] [Wrestling] > Fedotov [Kirgizthan] [Boxing]
Akhtevesian [RUS] [Wrestling] > Izmaylov [Kazakhstan] [Boxing]
Zamirbek Syrgabayev [Kirgizthan] [Boxing] < Akhtevesian [RUS] [Wrestling]
Alymkulov [Kirgizthan] [Judo] < Artur Taymaskhanov [RUS] [Wrestling]
Kashpedin [Kirgizthan] [Wrestling] < Oleg Zakharov [RUS] [Sambo]
Oleg Zakharov [RUS] [Sambo] > Myrzabayev [Kirgizthan] [Wrestling]

IAFC - Pankration World Championship 2000 [Day 1]
Gela Getsadze [Belarussia] [Karate] < Vasily Kudin [RUS] [Wrestling]
 
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gono btw said:
That´s why, watchin´ya nitpickin´ & playin´the wiki warrior, kindah rubs me the wrong way, mate.
Ya know how many mistakes in your 'assessments'? Do ya see me jumpin´at ya?

1st: pay your dues, show that ya´re puttin´some legit work beyond those wiki statements, then come back here .
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Just stop putting it on me. You just admitted that 4 of your points given against the wrestlers shouldn't have been in there... & those 2 men with 2 losses each were on my list that I was questioning. So don't turn around & then make it out like my research is bothering you. I was actually right. & you questioned them yourself.

Why you're giving me such a hard time I don't know. You've actually agreed with me the whole time you've been insulting me for questioning you.
 
We will never know really, because we will never have a good mix of everything. For example, championship boxer that took MMA seriously has never happened; it likely never will because MMA pays peanuts for all but a few, and there is no reason for all of that work on learning the ground game when you can make more money in boxing..

JJ/submission wrestling has always had top players despite being a much lower percentage of fighters than wrestlers. You can make some decent money teaching and competing these days, so they are not motivated to get paid low and get CTE in MMA.

Wrestlers, on the other hand, have no other way to make jack shit, so obviously they will populate MMA.

Opinions are fine, but don't be a stooge like Rogan; in the last UFC when he was spooging about wrestling being the best because of the number of current champions, talk about a moron.. The percentage of champions we have that are wrestlers is high because the number of FIGHTERS we have that are wrestlers is high; that doesn't mean shit. That's sheer probability. The only way we would know is if we had somewhat even numbers, but we never will; everything else is mere speculation.

There have been some elite wrestlers that haven't done shit, and masters of other arts that have done very well. I think it depends on the individual, not the art when it comes to cross trained fighters.

Wrestlers have a shorter road to competing because strikers have to spend a long time learning the ground; they would get put on their back and smashed by lesser fighters unless they really spent a lot of time learning grappling first. But that doesn't mean once they learned it that they couldn't win in the sport as much as anyone else. Guys like CC, Hunt, Anderson, etc. have done great, and lets face it, those guys are no Marvin Haglers or Mike Tysons.
 
Grill master said:
Beautifully constructed as always, Gono. Thank you sir.

tenor.gif
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Ya gottah thank the other posters too, mate...

Poor Gono´s jus´ been out-ChowYunFat-ed...

DC.gif

chow yun 2.gif
 
TapMachine said:
The best base for MMA is the one you specialize in. Single base specialists that add layers of MMA-related skills on top of it are the best, in my opinion.

Of course, the best example would be wrestlers learning to strike.

EDIT: Also, I don't agree with the notion of MMA being the best base for MMA. If you're a jack of all trades and a master of none, you're going to get worked by a specialist with an MMA adapted game.
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Which is why a guy like Maia learned to wrestle. Because his lethal BJJ game was useless if he couldn't get the fight to the ground.

That's why the Nog brothers became decent boxers (assumedly because they didn't have access to high level wrestling training partners in Brazil).
 
Wrestlers have a strong representation in mma because it is free in high school. It is very effective style in a cage. The athletes are strong and cut weight. And they have no avenue to make money professionally hence pretty much anyone who wrestled, either has a choice to do mma after wrestling.....or get a normal job like everyone else.
 
Levi_ said:
We will never know really, because we will never have a good mix of everything. For example, championship boxer that took MMA seriously has never happened; it likely never will because MMA pays peanuts for all but a few, and there is no reason for all of that work on learning the ground game when you can make more money in boxing..

JJ/submission wrestling has always had top players despite being a much lower percentage of fighters than wrestlers. You can make some decent money teaching and competing these days, so they are not motivated to get paid low and get CTE in MMA.

Wrestlers, on the other hand, have no other way to make jack shit, so obviously they will populate MMA.

Opinions are fine, but don't be a stooge like Rogan; in the last UFC when he was spooging about wrestling being the best because of the number of current champions, talk about a moron.. The percentage of champions we have that are wrestlers is high because the number of FIGHTERS we have that are wrestlers is high; that doesn't mean shit. That's sheer probability. The only way we would know is if we had somewhat even numbers, but we never will; everything else is mere speculation.

There have been some elite wrestlers that haven't done shit, and masters of other arts that have done very well. I think it depends on the individual, not the art when it comes to cross trained fighters.

Wrestlers have a shorter road to competing because strikers have to spend a long time learning the ground; they would get put on their back and smashed by lesser fighters unless they really spent a lot of time learning grappling first. But that doesn't mean once they learned it that they couldn't win in the sport as much as anyone else. Guys like CC, Hunt, Anderson, etc. have done great, and lets face it, those guys are no Marvin Haglers or Mike Tysons.
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I think a big argument really is where does specialisation become a negative? spending time building up advanced skill in one area can obviously be a positive but committing so much to it that your skill set cannot pass over into MMA it depends on specialist rules.

Boxing especially is I think a situation were you could argue this often happens, not just grappling and kicks/knees but the effect of the smaller gloves. Mirko and Hunt for example are I think kickboxers who's style naturally suits MMA, the former very much based on movement for defence and the latter very aggressive and not focused as much on misdirection as boxers often are having to open up someones guard.
 
First of all, great fuckin thread, great fuckin posts n posters, itt. Many, many thanks!

I used to be one of the "MMA is the best base for MMA" thinkers.

Because, for some people, this type of open format allows them to express their particular skill-sets in a way that works best, for them.

Upon further reflection over the years, however, I have come to adopt the Gokor Chivichyan approach to "The Four Pillars of MMA" (Boxing. Wrestling. Muay Thai. Jiu-Jitsu.) by adding Karate, Judo, and Sambo.

Now, out of those seven, which one of them can I take with me to the others, and have a good base to start from, on day one?

The answer, Frankie, is Wrestling.
 
HHJ said:
@gono btw already knew this was the answer,and is just trying to shake up those accountants who got their blue belts and think they can beat anyone. He is trying to fluster and bamboozle all those guys on their morning runs under the hot thailand sun before training. He seeks to confusticate the purveryors of the sweet science to hang up their gloves in frustration. Many more will be led astray.
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BJ no.gif

"Wrestlers need a lesson in submission and I'm just the one to teach them."

frank.gif
 
Let's look at the bases of Heavyweight World Champions and some other great Heavyweights throughout MMA history

Ken Shamrock- (Submissions)
Bas Rutten- (Kyokushin Karate, Shintai Karate, Tae Kwon Do, boxing, Muay Thai, submissions)
Oleg Taktarov- (Sambo, Judo, Boxing, Jujitsu)
Mark Kerr- (Wrestling, Submissions)
Mo Smith- (Kickboxing)
Marco Ruas - (Luta Livre, kickboxing, boxing, Judo, BJJ, TKD, Capoeira)
Mark Coleman - (Wrestling)
Randy Couture - (Wrestling, boxing)
Igor Vovchanchyn- (Kickboxing & Sambo)
Josh Barnett- (Catch Wrestling, wrestling)
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira - (BJJ, Boxing, Judo)
Fedor Emelianenko (Judo, Sambo, Kickboxing, Boxing)
Andrei Arlovski- (Sambo, boxing, kickboxing)
Tim Sylvia- (Militech Systems, karate, wrestling, boxing, grappling)
Brock Lesnar - (Wrestling)
Frank Mir - (BJJ, Wrestling, Kenpo)
Mirko Cro Cop - (TKD, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Boxing)
Fabricio Werdum- (BJJ, Muay Thai)
Junior Dos Santos- (Boxing, BJJ)
Cain Velasquez - (Wrestling, boxing
Bigfoot Silva - (BJJ, Judo, Karate)
Mark Hunt- (Kickboxing, boxing)
Sergei Kharitonov - (Boxing, kickboxing, Military Systems)
Aleksandr Emelianenko - (Sambo, striking)
Stipe Miocic- (Boxing, Wrestling)
Daniel Cormier- (Wrestling, boxing, BJJ)
Alistair Overeem - (submissions, kickboxing, Muay Thai)
Kevin Randleman - (Wrestling)
Pedro Rizzo - (Muay Thai, Boxing, Luta Livre, BJJ)
Heath Herring - (Wrestling, Sambo, Dutch Kickboxing, BJJ)
Ricco Rodriguez - (BJJ, Wrestling)
Tom Erikson- (Wrestling)
Semmy Schilt - (Karate, Kickboxing, Submissions)
Derrick Lewis - (Street fighting)
Francis Ngannou - (Boxing)
Roy Nelson - (BJJ, Kung Fu, boxing)
 
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