Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 35] - The Samurai, The Missin´ Link in BJJ Evolution...

[gono btw]

Warning: TLDR here.

Today : [Brazilian & Japanese Scenes]

MYTH ?: The whole 'world' knew nothin´about that 'new' BJJ skill set @ UFC1.


Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:

Spoiler: DECONS

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/

+:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-ufc-1-was-really-born-41.3964531/

The narrative (especially among losers, obviously) @ UFC 1 was that them Gracies had an [unfair] advantage since they supposedly did all they could to 'hide' their 'new' skill set.

Now, the potential alternatives were already discussed in the very 1st Decons:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/

But the topic´s different today: this Decons is gonna explore a new [overlooked] angle...


The Samurai, aka Ivan Gomes :



I) The Evolution of his Skill Set:

Ivan was for sure top 2 GOAT of the Vale Tudo era, along with Euclides Pereira.
His record is obviously hard to assess: 570 W - 30 D - 1 DQ (vs Willlem Ruska, Judo Gold Medal in 1972)

Spoiler: vs Willlem Ruska

He was also South American Greco-Roman Champ.

He had a Judo & Luta Live background.
[Luta Livre ~ Catch Wrasslin´ + Greco-Roman Wrasslin´+ JJJ]

Let´s try to 'deconstruct' Ivan´s skill set & its evolution:

He first learnt JJ with Osmar Mousinho “Biuce”, who trained under Herondino.

He then competed in Boxing.

Then, he trained with Touro Novo, & with José Maria Freire between 1958 and 1959 (who trained under Nilo Veloso, who trained under George Gracie).

Then, he improved his striking (mainly kicks) under Agatângelo Braga.

Ivan had an epic fight with Carlson Gracie [draw] in 1963, joined him and learnt about BJJ (promising to never challenge him again).


II) His International Exposure:

Ivan then started a truly international career:
- 1st, several fights in Suriname.
- then, between 1975 & 1977, Inoki invited him to train & compete in Japan & Korea (86 fights).

Antonio Inoki already had a connection with Brazil since he had spent his childhood there.

Ivan challenged him, but Inoki ducked & tried to set up a [real] fight between Ivan & Karl Gotch, but the latter ducked too...

Spoiler: New Japan Pro-Wrestling

There, he trained Sumo, and taught... BJJ (!)


III) The Missed Opportunity:

Now, that´s quite fascinatin´: between 1975 & 1977, a generation of fighters had apparently the opportunity to learn BJJ, but to no avail, it seems...

This raises several essential questions:

> Was Ivan 'sidelined' by Karl Gotch´s influence (Gotch later even tried to talk Funaki into gettin´rid of newcomer Ken Shamrock)?

> Was he qualified to teach?

Spoiler: Carlson - Interview

Carlson Gracie interview: "Living Legend"
From O'Tatame magazine (Brazil)
This interview took place soon after UFC 15, at the end of 1997.

Q:
What was your hardest fight?
CARLSON:
My hardest fight was against Ivan Gomes, he was a monster.
Afterwards, he became my student and became world champion.
That was a terrible fight, with three-ten minute rounds, and would only stop if one of us fell out of the ring. He had 98 Kg (215lbs), and I was 73Kg (160lbs). But I was in really good shape, if it wasn't for that, I would have lost.

Q:
Was he a Jiu-Jitsu fighter?
CARLSON:
I think he learned with a student of my uncles, George in Recife (also North Brazil).
He was a Jiu-Jitsu fighter and not only was he very strong, but he had a very hard guard.

Note: Back in Brazil, Ivan did launch a gym with his brothers, teaching 'Ivan Gomes JJ System'.

> Was New Japan Pro-Wrestling a legit platform to introduce & showcase this new skill set?
Doubtful...Even though the boundaries between real & fake fights were sometimes undefined, BJJ was meant to shine, 1st & foremost, in a Vale Tudo environment.


CONCLUSION:

These questions will probably never be answered (depends on Inoki, but would he care?...)...
But one thing is sure: the UFC 1 narrative claimin´ that the whole 'world' didnt know about this 'new' skill set
seems rather weak now...
Had Ivan´s work been acknowledged in 1976, his students then (in New Japan Pro-Wrestling or not) would have developped/worked on this new skill set, and it would have reached...Pancrase.

Consequently, the 'world' didnt know, or didnt...want to know?


NEXT DECONS: Special Edition!

Spoiler: 'DECONS' Threads

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-1-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-2-khabib´s-eastern-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/

 

[FreddieRoachsVoice]

What a complete mess of a thread. That's an ignore for me

 

[Blayt7hh]

I don’t know what all that mess is you’re writing but most posters probably already realize that the Gracies weren’t the only people in the world that knew how to fight on the ground when UFC 1 happened.

JJ-Judo-BJJ. What the Gracies really brought to the game was how much they expanded on fighting from your back, which really was something almost completely unexplored before them. By the time UFC 1 happened Brazil already had MMA fights as well as Japan. Even in America the Gracies were already teaching bjj. However it is true that in most of the world it was almost completely unheard of and probably had the least exposure out of all the martial arts in the original tournament

 

[gono btw]

I don’t know what all that mess is you’re writing but most posters probably already realize that the Gracies weren’t the only people in the world that knew how to fight on the ground when UFC 1 happened.

JJ-Judo-BJJ. What the Gracies really brought to the game was how much they expanded on fighting from your back, which really was something almost completely unexplored before them. By the time UFC 1 happened Brazil already had MMA fights as well as Japan. Even in America the Gracies were already teaching bjj. However it is true that in most of the world it was almost completely unheard of and probably had the least exposure out of all the martial arts in the original tournament

For ya it´s a mess coz ya´re clueless, mate.

 

[gono btw]

What a complete mess of a thread. That's an ignore for me

 

[Blayt7hh]

For ya it´s a mess coz ya´re clueless, mate.

Lol it’s 5 o’clock wherever you are

 

[gono btw]

Lol it’s 5 o’clock wherever you are

Who gives a fook, avoid these Decons, then, ya weirdoh.

 

[Mike K.O]

I also don't like the (false) belief that teh Gracies "opened the world's eyes" about grappling
-Judo
-Luta Livre
-Jiu Jitsu
-Catch As Catch Can
-Greco-Roman and Freestyle wrestling
And probably many more regional styles of grappling
BJJ is 'easy' to learn (not easy to master) and UFC 1 was also a promotion for teh Gracies and their style

 

[mkt]

It's a moot point. Rorian only invited one other grappler to UFC 1: Ken Shamrock . Ken had 1 year of Pancrase experience. If you watch the earliest Pancrase fights, there are submissions, but nothing that looks like BJJ. No decent guard work, no triangle chokes, no gi's, etc. So Royce had a distinct advantage. It's also worth noting that Ken fought 4 days before UFC 1 in Japan. If you've ever made the Japan to U.S. flight, especially to a high-altitude place like Denver, you'd realize that's crazy considering jet lag and the altitude adjustment. Ken either thought he was going to win easy, or didn't care and only came for a paycheck. Either way, he wasn't 100% and had no knowledge of BJJ.

So while BJJ wasn't new in Brazil (duh!), it was new to Royce's opponents who had no clue what he was doing.

 

[mkt]

Even in America the Gracies were already teaching bjj. However it is true that in most of the world it was almost completely unheard of and probably had the least exposure out of all the martial arts in the original tournament

And they weren't teaching it to Royce's opponents. The only one who knew anything about it was Jason Delucia, who did a Gracie Challenge match a few years earlier. I think he later learned a bit from Gracie instructional videos or something, but he was still years behind Royce's level when they rematched in an early UFC. I'd love to have seen them fight again in the late 90s, though...I think Delucia might have won.

 

[gevoudane]

UFC 1 was a commercial for that scottish family.

 

[gono btw]

UFC 1 was a commercial for that scottish family.

already discussed:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/

 

[gono btw]

UFC 1 was also a promotion for teh Gracies and their style

It is essential to look at the big picture, tho: bigger than their ambition, the main ambition was to build a new market.

 

[gono btw]

So while BJJ wasn't new in Brazil (duh!), it was new to Royce's opponents who had no clue what he was doing.

This thread is about somethin´ pretty different > historical perspective.

 

[Mike K.O]

It is essential to look at the big picture, tho: bigger than their ambition, the main ambition was to build a new market.

Btw, were there any 'official' Vale Tudo fights in the USA before UFC 1?

 

[KawhiDoh]

How does gono btw have over 10K posts when his account is only a year and a half old?

And I thought I spent too much time on here...

 

[gono btw]

How does gono btw have over 10K posts when his account is only a year and a half old?

And I thought I spent too much time on here...

Answerin´ 2 bums like ya.

 

[mkt]

UFC 1 was a commercial for that scottish family.

McGracies?

 

[gono btw]

Btw, were there any 'official' Vale Tudo fights in the USA before UFC 1?

Vale Tudo is a pretty specific Fight Configuration, and historically what happened in the US b4 UFC 1 can hardly be considered a traditional Vale Tudo one, realistically.

 

[mkt]

Btw, were there any 'official' Vale Tudo fights in the USA before UFC 1?

There was a UFC type tournament in the late 70s...you can find news coverage of it on YouTube. It was just some one-night local thing in Ohio or somewhere. It looked like the wrestlers did pretty well, but obviously no one made a sport out of it. There was also a Gene Lebell vs. a boxer match in the 1960s. But there was anything organized or developed like Vale Tudo in the U.S.