Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 33] - The 'Undisputed' GOAT...

gono btw · May 21, 2019

Warning: TLDR

Today :

The 'Undisputed' GOAT...

> Myth: A supposedly 'Undisputed' GOAT is already a reality...somewhere...

Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:

The truth is... We can only acknowledge relatively strong or weak minorities, dependin´ on the MMA knowledge of the voters.

Since it´s a barber shop topic, it´s indeed a recurrent debate...
But, more often than not, these debates bring very lil to the equation since most participants fail to acknowledge the historical perspective and the necessity of a [legit] set of criteria.

I/ Criteria:

It all depends exclusively on your personal set of criteria.

When you make such a list, you do not compare Fighter X with Fighter Y, like how the former would fare with the latter in the cage/ring.

What you do compare is:

1/ The way they dominated the game.

2/ The quality of their opponents.

3/ The innovations they brought to the game.

4/ How many HOFers in the resumé.

5/ Quality wins AND Quality losses (= put wins & losses INTO CONTEXT)

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/

6/ Ali´s D2BG (Dared 2 Be Great?)... against heavier opponents.

Obs: this is NOT a head-2-head contest btw 2 fighters from different eras

II/ Misconceptions:

1/ The 'Prime' Concept:

A prime is not only about age, physical state, or how many fights u had (all sports combined)..

It can be a mental thing, like Frank said after the Cung Le fight, when he said that he no longer had the mental discipline to follow a gameplan.

A prime is also not about winning or losing. U can still be winning and no longer be in your prime: this is called fight IQ & experience, mental warfare too (see the B-Hop case).

Now a physical prime, back in the days (now with so many sophisticated PEDs...), would go up to 34 yrs old maxi.

The GOAT debate is clearly polluted by a poor understanding of this very basic concept, and you still see some fans swearin´that Big Nog, for instance, was in his prime when he signed with the UFC and fought Heath...

Reminder:
If you really wanna assess a fighter´s career, you have to know about:
> The context
> The fighters´skill set
> The fighters´s evolution [analysis of ALL the MMA Orgs he competed in > different Fight Configuration & Scoring Ideology].

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/

2/ Eras :

> 'Real' Fightin´:

Some fans like to differentiate a sport that approach the closest to real fighting from hybrid forms of wrestling.

Sergio Batarelli, IVC promotor, said that the current UFC´s fight configuration is a "joke", "much too watered down compared to the real Vale Tudo tradition."

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ly-really-intimate-with-the-pedro-30.3905323/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-the-doc-had-to-check-the-cut-during-the-gnp-36.3941549/

Each org tries to target a market, promoting a certain type of 'entertainment' according to its core market.
This choice predetermines what kind of ruleset will be effective or not under this fight configuration.

Hence, Rings or Early Pancrase were no less MMA than current UFC.
The current UFC is in-between, due to its fight configuration and ruleset: not really "real fighting" a la Vale Tudo, and not really "pure" MMA a la Rings/Pancrase, since the grappling level has become so limited.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/

> Skill Set Evolution:

Some fans tend to dismiss a whole generation, even several ones, claimin´ that they belong to 'dark ages' of MMA.
Most of these 'Decons' Threads are about this topic:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/

> Padded records:

Some fans are quick at dismissin´ a potential GOAT´s [early] opponents (see Igor or Khabib), claimin´ that they were 'nobodies', 'cans', 'too limited' or whatever...

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/

MMA Rule No1: Never dismiss things you´ve never heard about.

If you dedicate some time to study a lil bit about MMA History, you might learn that:

1: The skill gap was not that obvious during certain eras:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/

2: Some of these potential 'cans´ were legit fighters who had very few MMA opportunities back in the day, when tournament spots were scarce: [in the 1990s]

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/

...Or who had still limited access to Worldwide MMA Orgs, like the Eastern European fighters:
[in the 19990s & 2000s]

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/

3/ MMA Orgs´ legitimacy:

So many daydream-like scenarios here...
People love to see fixed fights everywhere in the East...
4 or 5 cases are enough to become a 'modus operandi'.
Pride & Pancrase literally seem to have been an extension of Pro Wrasslin´...

In the early days, when one-night tournaments @ OW were still the norm, all NHB Org. tended to have shaddy instances of corruption.

In Russian NHB:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...k-hands-then-gave-ilyukhin-a-hand-15.3864713/

In Brazilian Vale Tudo:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...enio-tadeu-climb-back-in-the-ring-34.3933271/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...d-to-face-2-opponents-in-the-ring-33.3924541/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-henzo-had-to-make-alvarenga-tap-several-times-11.3871109/

In the North American NHB scene:

> UFC: multiple cases (Hall, Macias, Tae Hyun Bang...)
> UCC: Stephane Patry (UCC CEO &.... No Rush Manager) > see the easy/quick TS & the Menjivar fight.

In the JMMA Scene:

The 'Decons' threads have been tryin´ to assess what really happened:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sakakibara-asked-chuteboxe-to-kill-saku-38.3955161/

The truth is... Pride was a transition from Japanese pro wrasslin´/new MMA Org (like Pancrase & Rings) with emphasis on the submission game.
A new wave of fighters [Funaki, Suzuki, Tamura etc...] were willin´to transition to a new form of entertainement.
Consequently, Pride was tryin´to create a new market, and the Takada fights were a steppin´ stone since, legit or not, they were the reason why this market got created.

In a way, Takada kindah 'sacrificed' himself & his legacy for MMA Evolution...

4/ PEDs:

Reminder:
John Hyams: "The UFC did not want us to release the documentary 'The Smashing Machine."

People keep usin´ this argument as an angle of attack against the Pride Generation.
Pretty short-sighted, to say the least...

Steroids were fully ingrained in the culture of the UFC by the time Kerr arrived.

Randy Couture, who debuted in the Octagon one event before Kerr, dismissed UFC’s testing protocol at the time as illegitimate.

“Everyone knew it was a joke,” Couture said. “They basically tossed you a cup and sent you to the bathroom, but I don't know why they even did it. I think it was to cross off a box.”

Kerr said doctors conducting pre-fight medicals ignored obvious warning signs of his steroid use.
"I remember sitting across the table from the doctor, and the doctor looking at my liver enzymes,” Kerr said. “When you do anabolics in high amounts it messes with your liver enzymes. The doctor was looking at me and looking at the liver enzymes and looking at me. He said, 'Do you realize this is eight times the normal amount you're supposed to have?' I said, ‘Yeah,' and that was it. They allowed me to fight."

III/ From the fighters´ perspective:

Let´s start with this thread:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/your-fighter´s-goat.3730621/

(poll made in July, 2016...).

Important: By 2016, Spider´s, Fedor´s & No Rush´s legacies were already cemented, if you consider their physical prime..

Moreover, about the PED issue, since the poll is about pro fighters, you cant realistically accuse them of bein´ 'naive': they know who used PEDs back then, so much better than us or MMA media.

Finally, most of these pro fighters didnt choose their' favourite' dudes, they chose the logical one accordin´to their set of criteria.
For instance, when a Brazilian says that Helio or Carlson is the GOAT, it´s coz they indeed acknowledge these dudes´ legacy in NHB/Vale Tudo History...

It is indeed essential to include fighters from different generations, coz this sport didnt start 25 yrs ago..

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/

Since this poll had 'only' 180 voters, let´s try to expand it:

JOE LAUZON:

https://mmajunkie.com/2017/03/ufc-f...kes-case-for-ex-champ-b-j-penn-as-the-g-o-a-t

> BJ

BEN SAUNDERS:

> BJ

KHABIB:

> Fedor

PEDRO HIZZO:

> 1- Marco Huas
2- Fedor
3- Chuck
4- Aldo
5- Spider

No RUSH:

https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/gsp-royce-gracie-is-the-g-o-a-t

> Hoyce

CARLÃO BARRETO:

> 1- Carlson
2- Fedor
3- Spider
4- Busta
5- No Rush

HANDY COUTURE:

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/1/...-fedor-emelianenko-georges-st-pierre-mma-news

> Can´t decide between Fedor, No Rush & Spider.

SPIDER:

https://sportv.globo.com/site/comba...s-melhores-lutadores-da-historia-do-mma.ghtml

> 1- BJ
2- Hoyce
3- Big Nog

WALLID:

> 1- Carlson
2- Spider (Note: he´s callin´him the ´Pelé' of MMA...)
3- Big Nog
4- Wand
5- Werdum

ANDRE PEDERNEIRAS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLgXS16sCxc

Doesnt seem to drop a particular oder, unless he considers Hoyce 1st:

> Hoyce
Marco Huas
Spider
Aldo
Fedor

FABER:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g4JWvOgSYs

> Hendo

MITRIONE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiKpKrRbbAI

> Fedor

WERDUM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMPSkODs3hE

> Said that Fedor is greater than Spider in MMA History...

BEBEO DUARTE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lx-gYHfTkM

> 1- Carlson
2- Spider
3- Big Nog
4- Fedor
5- Busta

http://mmaimports.com/2018/07/nate-diaz-names-his-g-o-a-t/

Let´s try to build a bigger database:
Name of the Fighter + Link as a proof.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

[/SPOILER

Threetrees · May 21, 2019

Tldr:its subjective

Yacob · May 21, 2019

There's probably never going to be a clear goat.

It'll eventually be like basketball where you have to separate eras because the style of play and type of talent was so different that itd be the difference between baseball and softball

We already kind of see it....guys from early UFC are regional level talents at best.

Unless some dude in mma goes like 50-0 and cleans out two ufc divisions entirely, there will be arguments.

Some people probably think Royce Gracie is the best ever....he'd get decapitated so fast in this era that he might as well be one of us in there....i wouldn't even doubt someone reading this could beat the shit out of him in his prime

IloveTHIS · May 21, 2019

Didnt read

FEDOR.

simple answer

ApplesVild · May 21, 2019

Never scrolled so fast through a wall of text

Yacob · May 21, 2019

IloveTHIS said:
Didnt read

FEDOR.

simple answer

gono btw · May 21, 2019

Smiling Vandal said:
GSP is the GOAT, even using your criteria.

1. The way they dominated the game
- GSP won 33 straight rounds against elite fighters in the most stacked weight class at the time, and avenged both of his losses in dominating fashion.
2. The quality of their opponents.
- GSP fought in a more competitive division than Jones, Fedor, DJ, and Silva and beat more top 5 fighters in his weight class than anyone else.
3. The innovations they brought to the game.
- GSP was single-handedly responsible for the growth of MMA in Canada.
4. How many HOFers in the resume
- GSP has more than any other legitimate GOAT candidate
5. Quality wins AND Quality losses (= put wins & losses INTO CONTEXT)
- GSP fought in the most stacked weight class against a range of styles and came out victorious almost every time.
6. Ali´s D2BG (Dared 2 Be Great?)... against heavier opponents.
- GSP was an average sized welterweight who moved up a weight class after 4 years of inactivity to finish the reigning middleweight champion.

> 6: Unfortunately, the 6th element is not really for No Rush...

> 5: a significant part of his run was against bloated LWs, even BWs.

> 4: guys like SAKU, Hendo, Fedor,Nog have more.

> 3: talkin´about technical inovations

> 2 : Holmes & Klitschkos too were dominant, it´s then a case of MDE, not GOAT.

> 1:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/

Blowing Dixie · May 21, 2019

Fedor for dominating HW for so long, followed by Anderson for being a good WW who moved up to MW and dominated and even owning some people at LHW.

gono btw · May 21, 2019

IloveTHIS said:
Didnt read

FEDOR.

simple answer

Yacob said:
There's probably never going to be a clear goat.

It'll eventually be like basketball where you have to separate eras because the style of play and type of talent was so different that itd be the difference between baseball and softball

We already kind of see it....guys from early UFC are regional level talents at best.

Unless some dude in mma goes like 50-0 and cleans out two ufc divisions entirely, there will be arguments.

Some people probably think Royce Gracie is the best ever....he'd get decapitated so fast in this era that he might as well be one of us in there....i wouldn't even doubt someone reading this could beat the shit out of him in his prime

This Decons is more about criteria. much more interestin´.

Grill master · May 21, 2019

Me scanning the list, looking for Hickson.

gono btw · May 21, 2019

Smiling Vandal said:
I understand that you're a Fedor fan, but history has proven that being bigger than 245lbs at heavyweight isn't really an advantage at all.

The best heavyweights have always been between 220 and 240lbs; Fedor, Nogueira, Werdum, Cain, JDS, I can go on and on....so Fedor doesn't deserve special credit for fighting bigger guys.
Plus he actually outweighed the two best opponents on his resume (Cro Cop and Nogueira).

Weight is a lot more important at the lower weight classes so that's why GSP's 'dare to be great' factor is just as respectable as Fedor's.

Hmmm...nah...not a Fedor fan... everybody knows my GOAT...

gono btw · May 21, 2019

Grill master said:
No love for Hickson?

Hickson chose money over legacy. mate... He was a businessman 1st...

Mike · May 21, 2019

A lot of people won't admit the criteria is so subjective it will always be a goat list and never a singular goat. MMA is a crazy sport with lots of highs and lows and upsets. Everyone's favorite fighter has great moments and awful moments. Just depends on what you want to highlight

Mike · May 21, 2019

Grill master said:
Me scanning the list, looking for Hickson.

That's because he's definitely not the goat lol

iwillbebackin3weeks · May 21, 2019

Yacob said:
It'll eventually be like basketball where you have to separate eras because the style of play and type of talent was so different that itd be the difference between baseball and softball

99% of basketball people think Jordan is the GOAT.

gono btw · May 21, 2019

Blowing Dixie said:
Fedor for dominating HW for so long, followed by Anderson for being a good WW who moved up to MW and dominated and even owning some people at LHW.

Hmmmm... Spider @ WW...

not really D2BG...

Grill master · May 21, 2019

gono btw said:
Hickson chose money over legacy. mate... He was a businessman 1st...

A good one at that. Undefeated 500+ win record against random guys at the beach and rival gym beef.

Great OP, very interesting idea. Appriciate the effort sherbro.

iwillbebackin3weeks · May 21, 2019

Mike said:
A lot of people won't admit the criteria is so subjective it will always be a goat list and never a singular goat. MMA is a crazy sport with lots of highs and lows and upsets. Everyone's favorite fighter has great moments and awful moments. Just depends on what you want to highlight

this shit aint rocket science bro lmao

resume/defenses >>>> rest

Grill master · May 21, 2019

Mike said:
That's because he's definitely not the goat lol

I know, I still get caught up in the nostalgia of Pride and Sherdog from 10 years ago.

It's Fedor for me. Always has and always will be.

gono btw · May 21, 2019

Grill master said:
A good one at that. Undefeated 500+ win record against random guys at the beach and rival gym beef.

Great OP, very interesting idea.

It´s actually 482-1...

But dont tell it to Helson or...Helio...

Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 33] - The 'Undisputed' GOAT...

Rounds...

He/Him

Bill Joe Sanders can kiss my wrinkly nutsack

Steel Belt

Banned

Bill Joe Sanders can kiss my wrinkly nutsack

Rounds...

Banned

Rounds...

Hardest hitting 245 pounder on Sherdog

Rounds...

Rounds...

Titanium Belt

Titanium Belt

Banned

Rounds...

Hardest hitting 245 pounder on Sherdog

Banned

Hardest hitting 245 pounder on Sherdog

Rounds...

Forum statistics

Share this page