Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 27] - Pride OW GP, Mezger & Those Infamous 6 Lbs...

On a side note, @gono btw: How long have you been doing threads like these? I love old school MMA history stuff. If it's not too much of a pain in the ass, could you give me a rundown of some of the stuff you've covered in the past?
 
Bullitt68 said:
We're splitting hairs, as we seem to be assessing the totality of that fight similarly, but the reason that I put the emphasis on the draw rather than the weight is because a draw shouldn't have even been an option. What should've been going through the judges' heads should've been: "We have to declare a winner, so let's consider everything, including the weight, and decide who most deserves the victory." In a perfect world, everything should've hinged on the weight as far as how to decide on who deserved the victory. Instead, they refused/didn't know they were supposed to make a decisive ruling and called it a draw.



You could also make the case that Guy should've told Ken that he didn't care what anyone was trying to pull and that he was willing to fight another round. Of course, given Ken's personality, that might've been the equivalent of burning their bridge and could've resulted in Ken turning his back on Guy, which isn't something I imagine Guy would've been willing to risk. Still, though, at the end of the day, no matter who your coaches/teammates are, it's you in that ring and it's you who has to decide your fate. Regardless of Ken's hollering about contracts and agreements, Guy was faced with a simple choice: To fight or not. He opted not to fight. I totally understand where Ken was coming from: PRIDE made a deal and they were breaking it. And I totally understand where Guy was coming from: Ken was taking a stand and Guy followed his coach's lead.

An unfortunate situation all around. When I look back on that fight, though, the sticking point for me is the one-round-winner-take-all stipulation. Declaring that fight a draw was a middle finger to Ken and Guy from PRIDE. Very not cool. We can debate about who should've done what after that middle finger went up, but first and foremost, the fact that PRIDE went back on their word and tried to change things up on the fly was not cool.
Click to expand...

hmmm...yeah, but Ken was already an ol´vet, he knew about the Japanese way since his PWF-Gumi & Pancrase days...

Im not criticizin´ Ken´s stance here (I barely quote him).
Im tryin´ to show how difficult it was to score that fight (and thus dismiss the 'hobbery' narrative).

He also knew his fighter, and could feel that Mezger was windin´ down (see the last 2 mns of the fight).

Guy himself acknowledged it afterwards:

Mezger: "For some reason, I had a tremendous amount of energy for that 15 minutes, but I started to kind of wilt near the end."

Hume also declared that: "We knew nothing about that. I don't doubt Ken had an agreement with them. What he claimed he was told was that it would be one round."

As I said, Pride was still a rookie Org.
 
Bullitt68 said:
On a side note, @gono btw: How long have you been doing threads like these? I love old school MMA history stuff. If it's not too much of a pain in the ass, could you give me a rundown of some of the stuff you've covered in the past?
Click to expand...
I have 2 series runnin´:

Decons. (heavies & worldwide):

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/#post-144836697
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/

and another one named 'The Day...' (worldwide only), about 'extraordinary' moments in NHB/Vale Tudo history:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-death-master-stormed-into-the-vale-tudo-scene.3882431/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-igor-showed-his-genuine-side.3821765/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-couture-got-played-by-ilyukhin.3866571/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/t...hook-hands-then-gave-ilyukhin-a-hand.3864713/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yvel-bit-barkalaev-volk-han-slapped-the-ref.3863115/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/t...rbick-b4-coning-mayweather-this-week.3863593/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-tamura-forgot-to-shake-hands-with-yamamoto.3863509/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-marco-huas-went-full-babalu-toquinho.3852863/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-scary-side-of-the-russian-nhb-scene.3853211/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-paulson-got-kimo-ed-badly.3831975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-paulson-had-to-tap-with-his-foot-on-ronin´s-head.3830825/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-rei-zulu-machida-ed-sergio-batarelli.3828423/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/20-years-ago.3816669/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/t...nga-tap-several-times.3871109/#post-146958711
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-oleg-forgot-about-the-special-rule.3853539/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-amar-suloev-mightymoused-oganov.3871769/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-pelé-settled-the-score-in-the-ring.3812249/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sergei-akinin-launched-a-new-mma-gear.3872407/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-drago-was-happy-wand-wasnt-cornerin´-dipp.3873849/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-coleman-went-full-roid-rage-in-brazil.3874387/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-kurmanov-the-boxer-submitted-ahmedov-the-jj.3874565/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-saad-muhammad-promised-a-ko-against-tamura.3875713/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-leg-lock-master-met-manos-de-piedra.3876141/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/t...-katsumi-usuta-to-tap-against-wallid.3877671/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-little-volk-forgot-to-grapple-in-rings.3878575/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-tank-inspired-coleman.3879835/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-takeo-yano-george-gracie-both-went-lights-out.3881991/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-nobody-knew-if-sauer-had-tapped-or-not.3886109/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-the-ref-gave-the-victory-to-bjj-fearing-a-riot.3894033/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ase-the-hold-at-the-end-of-the-round.3896733/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yamasaki-got-inspired-to-become-a-ref-26.3885363/
 
gono btw said:
I meant, for instance a leg kick from a LHW [KB] to a WW should do more legit damage.
Click to expand...
Yes legs kick hurt but from personal experience they hurt more tomorrow. And I'm a pretty stocky guy.
 
gono btw said:
I have 2 series runnin´:

Decons. (heavies & worldwide):

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/#post-144836697
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/

and another one named 'The Day...' (worldwide only), about 'extraordinary' moments in NHB/Vale Tudo history:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-death-master-stormed-into-the-vale-tudo-scene.3882431/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-igor-showed-his-genuine-side.3821765/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-couture-got-played-by-ilyukhin.3866571/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/t...hook-hands-then-gave-ilyukhin-a-hand.3864713/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yvel-bit-barkalaev-volk-han-slapped-the-ref.3863115/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/t...rbick-b4-coning-mayweather-this-week.3863593/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-tamura-forgot-to-shake-hands-with-yamamoto.3863509/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-marco-huas-went-full-babalu-toquinho.3852863/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-scary-side-of-the-russian-nhb-scene.3853211/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-paulson-got-kimo-ed-badly.3831975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-paulson-had-to-tap-with-his-foot-on-ronin´s-head.3830825/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-rei-zulu-machida-ed-sergio-batarelli.3828423/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/20-years-ago.3816669/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/t...nga-tap-several-times.3871109/#post-146958711
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-oleg-forgot-about-the-special-rule.3853539/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-amar-suloev-mightymoused-oganov.3871769/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-pelé-settled-the-score-in-the-ring.3812249/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sergei-akinin-launched-a-new-mma-gear.3872407/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-drago-was-happy-wand-wasnt-cornerin´-dipp.3873849/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-coleman-went-full-roid-rage-in-brazil.3874387/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-kurmanov-the-boxer-submitted-ahmedov-the-jj.3874565/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-saad-muhammad-promised-a-ko-against-tamura.3875713/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-leg-lock-master-met-manos-de-piedra.3876141/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/t...-katsumi-usuta-to-tap-against-wallid.3877671/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-little-volk-forgot-to-grapple-in-rings.3878575/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-tank-inspired-coleman.3879835/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-takeo-yano-george-gracie-both-went-lights-out.3881991/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-nobody-knew-if-sauer-had-tapped-or-not.3886109/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-the-ref-gave-the-victory-to-bjj-fearing-a-riot.3894033/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ase-the-hold-at-the-end-of-the-round.3896733/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yamasaki-got-inspired-to-become-a-ref-26.3885363/
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<{dayum}>
 
gono btw said:
Someone´s gonna run ya out of the building again!

View attachment 510763
Click to expand...

I love Sakuraba, but Ken is my all-time favorite fighter, and man did that hurt to see. In his fight with Franklin, the way that the first glancing GNP shot from Franklin immediately rocked him was an indication that his chin might be gone. After he got slept by Sakuraba of all people, there was no denying it. Ken ate MASSIVE shots from the monstrously roided to the gills Don Frye and not only survived but reversed him on the ground and locked him up in a heel hook. To see cute little Sakuraba turn his lights out was essentially the curtain coming down for him.

giphy.gif
 
Bullitt68 said:
I love Sakuraba, but Ken is my all-time favorite fighter, and man did that hurt to see. In his fight with Franklin, the way that the first glancing GNP shot from Franklin immediately rocked him was an indication that his chin might be gone. After he got slept by Sakuraba of all people, there was no denying it. Ken ate MASSIVE shots from the monstrously roided to the gills Don Frye and not only survived but reversed him on the ground and locked him up in a heel hook. To see cute little Sakuraba turn his lights out was essentially the curtain coming down for him.

giphy.gif
Click to expand...


But pro wrestling is fake. . Tell that to Ken shamrocks brain.. I don't care what they say about pro wrestling but taking chair shots and being slammed repeatedly is going to take years off of your life and especially your athletic life... Imagine if Ken kept on fighting and never switched.. He wasn't afraid to cross train and try different things to add to his game... He could of been even more of a legend... But Vince McMahon got his money hungry hands on him.. And wrecked his brain knees and back
 
Bullitt68 said:
The controversy isn't the weight, it's the draw. Historically, it's well-known that Ken was quick to lose his temper. However, he never lost his temper for no reason. He never just flew off the handle with no provocation. It was always an issue with Ken of whether he should've reacted to such an extreme to a given provocation (from yelling at Tito over the cage at UFC 19 to almost coming to blows with Don Frye at the PRIDE 19 press conference); it was never the case that he didn't have legit grounds for being upset.*

(*The exceptions to this would be his second loss to Tito and his own loss to Sakuraba, where, after suffering flash KOs, he protested the stoppages. To be fair, in both instances he'd just had his already pretty scrambled brain further scrambled and genuinely thought that he was all there and that he should've been allowed to continue fighting. So, as a qualifier, perhaps it'd be most accurate to say that Ken was never a bullshitter; even if he was wrong on a particular issue, he always acted in good faith based on what he genuinely believed was the case.)

In the case of the Mezger/Sakuraba fight, if Ken went apeshit like that because he thought that PRIDE was trying to screw one of his fighters over, then PRIDE was trying to screw one of his fighters over. He was very clear about it. The contract was for the fight to be one round at the end of which a winner was to be declared. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. At the end of the round, a winner would be declared and would move on in the tournament. They could've made it much easier on themselves if they would've just declared a winner. Even if Sakuraba would've gotten the nod, Ken and Guy could've complained until the end of time, but at least they would've been complaining about who won the fight, not about PRIDE jerking them around. Instead, the PRIDE officials tried to change shit up on the fly and Ken, as he always did, took a principled stand and refused to budge.

I do think that it was a razor close fight, and, in normal circumstances, should've been declared a draw. But the key point is that those weren't normal circumstances. They should've declared a winner per the arrangement that they agreed to before the fight. It's as simple as that.

On the subject of controversies in the 2000 GP, I've never seen anyone bring up the fact that Sakuraba could've/should've gotten the nod over Igor in their semi-final fight. They called it a draw, and it was a really close fight, but the weight discrepancy could've/should've tilted the scoring in Sakuraba's favor. Given the "hometown" advantage, I've always been shocked that he didn't get the nod and get a shot in the finals to win the GP.
Click to expand...

Saku did very good against a prime HW Igor after his 90 minute demolition of Hoyce but it would have been further unfair to Saku had he got the nod (sounds weird to say he deserved to back out) but he must have been more gassed than we can see vs Igor for his team to call it off plus for him as a ballsy warrior not to protest his teams decision to give Igor the win.

A well-rested prime Mark Coleman (remember that Fujita started the bell then threw the towel immediately, I think to get the prize money on a technicality?) would have been waiting for a Saku that had fought for nearly 2 hours straight vs Hoyce and Igor

Saku vs Coleman in 2000 (both rested) would have been awesome tho, Saku was just so on point at the time and balls weighed at Super HW
 
BlueNote said:
IMO...Frank acted like a manaic after the draw announcement, and pulled Guy out of the match like a goon....if any "Work" was done, it was on Shamrock, he refused to let Guy continue . Maybe he was in with the Pride Officals to make sure Saku advanced....one way or another. No way Guy was going to win an overtime decision no matter how the final round played out! Just my own idea on the controversies

Saku and Royce was going to happen
Click to expand...
Ken felt that Guy was windin´down in the final mns of the regular time...

SAKU G. vs Hoyce had a special [Vale Tudo] Fight Configuration, and thus shouldnt have happened inside the Tournament.
 
gono btw said:
Ken felt that Guy was windin´down in the final mns of the regular time...

SAKU G. vs Hoyce had a special [Vale Tudo] Fight Configuration, and thus shouldnt have happened inside the Tournament.
Click to expand...

Hear you there, but if I'm not mistaken...it was all Royce's insistence, and Pride wanted that matchup BADLY!!! The rematch was farcical....but that 1st one in the OW...my my
 
BlueNote said:
Hear you there, but if I'm not mistaken...it was all Royce's insistence, and Pride wanted that matchup BADLY!!! The rematch was farcical....but that 1st one in the OW...my my
Click to expand...
He insisted on the special [Vale Tudo] rule, but made no sense to insist on it bein´ during the Tournament...
 
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