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TODAY: [NHB/Vale Tudo Era]
MYTH : Cross-trainin´ started in the 2000s, the previous eras can all be considered MMA´s dark ages, simply one-dimensional.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
In retrospect, NHB/Vale Tudo was much less refined...Even the BJJ Black Belts, most of the time, would GNP...
If you look at the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenges [1984 or 1991], or hardcore tournaments like WVC or IVC,
half of the dudes invited were BJJ dudes, and the fights were pretty gruelling ones, not really technical.
Early Pancrase tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, with fighters working on their
ground game and trying to built a submission game (that´s why GNP was forbidden, great idea...).
A talented generation willing to create cross-training teams,and adapt their game to a new fight configuration, technically more demanding .
Rings too had this same objective. And you could say that both had a clear influence
in Early Pride´s game...
Frank Shamrock is reputed to have somehow started this cross-training thing...
But the truth is... Other ol´school fighters were already doin´it much b4 him.
The Brazilian & Russian Vale Tudo scenes were much more advanced, historically:
1/ The Brazilian Vale Tudo Era [1960s-70s]:
In his interviews, Euclides Pereira always insisted that he was already doin´this shit in his time:
he was cross-trainin´Luta Livre [~ Catch Wrasslin´+greco-roman wrasslin´+JJJ], Karate, Boxe & Capoeira (he then learnt BJJ, possibly with a George Gracie student].
His rival, Ivan Gomes was into Luta Livre & Judo. He then became a Carlson student after their fight.
B4 meetin´ Carlson, Ivan was trainin´ his ground game with Agatangelo & José Maria Freire (Zé Maria), former student of Nilo Veloso (a George Gracie´s student).
But it was Osmar Mousinho “Biuce” who introduced Ivan to JJ.
That said, he was pretty well-rounded, strikin´& wrasslin too, and had a legit submission game (deadly heel hooks> Carlson even said once that he believed he was the creator of this technique...)
And even "Gracies" like Waldemar Santana [or Rolls, but difficult to check] were not restricted to "Pure" BJJ.
Waldemar was into BJJ, Boxe & Capoeira.
The thing is... People tend to believe that the Vale Tudo era was one-dimensional because of the Gracie challenges & their 'ideology': TMA vs TMA.
But this was only ONE branch of them Gracies. And the Vale Tudo scene as a whole didnt share the same MMA ideology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1pzOsUOKrk
Bonus: The Original Atomic Butt drop!:
2/ The Pre-'Modern' Era [1990s]:
I could focus here on 'high profile' fighters like Marco Huas for instance ("If my opponent is a grappler, I outstrike him, if he´s a striker, I take him to the ground") but people would claim that this narrative only fits the elite fighters.
Hence, let´s try to check 'obscure' ol´school fighters...
> Brazilian Vale Tudo scene:
James Adler (Kickboxing mainly...and judo too) vs Fera Do Acari:
Was @ Desafio - International Vale Tudo [1/1/1995]
Adler, a striker, pullin´ no less than an armbar...:
CHUTEBOXE:
Rudimar Fedrigo jus´dropped a massive interview, spittin´ some real science...
Unfortunately, it´s in portuguese, and there´s too many valuable info in it, cant really make cliffs (2 hrs), but I´ll try to make several threads about it.
Some of 'The Day' Threads have already dealt with some of the things he´s recallin´, especially Chuteboxe & the Vale Tudo era...
Now... @ 16mn30:
Rudimar explains that his original vision, when he started Chuteboxe in the 1990s, was an union between MT & BJJ, which would explain their fighters´ underrated ground game....
Master Nico (Carlson´s friend from Rio) was the original BJJ teacher there.
He was introduced by Rafael Cordeiro.
Unlike in Rio, in Curitiba there was no 'ideological' limitation for such a plan.
> Japanese scene:
Gono... Me, Myself, and I...
Started as a samboist @ the Lumax Cup, JJJ Tournament 1995-96 (kindah proto-MMA> JJJ + Karate + Judo) where ATG Japz started their career (DapunkMinowaman, TK too...)
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x705jst
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x705fhe
[See some gifs in the 4th page]
> American scene:
Guy Mezger :
[see some gifs in the 4th page].
Background: Wrasslin´ (High School), boxing, karate.
Competition: : Kickboxing [record = 20-2 (19 KO), held the US heavyweight title.
Transitionned to MMA: 1st UFC, then Pancrase, where he had to learn the ground game, to be competitive.
In his 7th Pancrase fight, 1 year after havin´ transitionned to MMA (!), pulled no less than 2 kneebars against Gregory Smit [Pancrase - Truth 1, 1996]
Din Thomas, BJJ & Legit Boxing [see some gifs in the 2nd page].
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x703pxg
> Dutch scene:
Allistair 'Reem':
Valentijn must beone of the main reasons that explain Allistair´s smooth transition to MMA.
In his very 1st MMA fights (Rings/M-1 MFC/2Hot2Handle), Allistair was already looking for the groundgame, quickly clinching to get the TD and work for a sub, more than anything else.
Here, in his 5th MMA fight, the 'striker' pulled no less than a slick armbar.
Was @ Rings: Millennium Combine 1 [2000]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDQXrtOIJjs
[see the gif in the 4th page]
> Russian Vale Tudo scene:
The Day Kurmanov The Boxer submitted Ahmedov The JJ...:
Was @ IAFC - Absolute Fighting Championship 2: Day 2 [May / 02 / 1997]
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-kurmanov-the-boxer-submitted-ahmedov-the-jj-14.3874565/
Here we have an ol´man, presenting himself as a boxer, pullin´a Leg Scissor Choke:
Submittin´ a young lion, a submission artist (even though undersized, the weight numbers are obviously wrong
here)...jus´like ol´Vet Kopylov would submit young gun BJJ Castelo Branco in Rings a few years later...
The Day Amar Suloev MightyMoused Oganov:
Was @ Pankration World Championship 2000 Day 1 [Russian NHB]:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-amar-suloev-mightymoused-oganov.3871769/
Suloev, while fightin´@ openweight most of the time, had fluid & versatile striking, great TDD, slick judo throws, great boxing defence, serious ground game.
Ivan Gerus:
Capable grappler, showcased some interesting Boxing skills (defensively too):
@ IAFC - Russian Open Cup 3 [August 29, 1997 - Moscow, Russia]::
Ivan Chestowukov vs Ivan Guerus
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6z2gio
Akhmed Sagidgusainov:
A boxer who would train under Volk Han [pre-RTT], showing versatility on the ground:
Some of his fights:
NOTE: More skill sets will be progressively added in this thread.
MYTH : Cross-trainin´ started in the 2000s, the previous eras can all be considered MMA´s dark ages, simply one-dimensional.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
In retrospect, NHB/Vale Tudo was much less refined...Even the BJJ Black Belts, most of the time, would GNP...
If you look at the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenges [1984 or 1991], or hardcore tournaments like WVC or IVC,
half of the dudes invited were BJJ dudes, and the fights were pretty gruelling ones, not really technical.
Early Pancrase tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, with fighters working on their
ground game and trying to built a submission game (that´s why GNP was forbidden, great idea...).
A talented generation willing to create cross-training teams,and adapt their game to a new fight configuration, technically more demanding .
Rings too had this same objective. And you could say that both had a clear influence
in Early Pride´s game...
Frank Shamrock is reputed to have somehow started this cross-training thing...
But the truth is... Other ol´school fighters were already doin´it much b4 him.
The Brazilian & Russian Vale Tudo scenes were much more advanced, historically:
1/ The Brazilian Vale Tudo Era [1960s-70s]:
In his interviews, Euclides Pereira always insisted that he was already doin´this shit in his time:
he was cross-trainin´Luta Livre [~ Catch Wrasslin´+greco-roman wrasslin´+JJJ], Karate, Boxe & Capoeira (he then learnt BJJ, possibly with a George Gracie student].
His rival, Ivan Gomes was into Luta Livre & Judo. He then became a Carlson student after their fight.
B4 meetin´ Carlson, Ivan was trainin´ his ground game with Agatangelo & José Maria Freire (Zé Maria), former student of Nilo Veloso (a George Gracie´s student).
But it was Osmar Mousinho “Biuce” who introduced Ivan to JJ.
That said, he was pretty well-rounded, strikin´& wrasslin too, and had a legit submission game (deadly heel hooks> Carlson even said once that he believed he was the creator of this technique...)
IVAN GOMES:
Ivan was for sure top 2 GOAT of the Vale Tudo era, along with Euclides Pereira.
His record is obviously hard to assess: 570 W - 30 D - 1 DQ (vs Willlem Ruska, Judo Gold Medal in 1972)
He was also South American Greco-Roman Champ.
But his international career & the hespect he earned among his peers proved he was legit, indeed.
He had a Judo & Luta Live background.
[Luta Livre ~ Catch Wrasslin´+greco-roman wrasslin´+JJJ]
Let´s try to 'deconstruct' Ivan´s skill set & its evolution:
He first learnt JJ with Osmar Mousinho “Biuce”, who trained under Herondino.
He then competed in Boxing.
Then, he trained with Touro Novo, & with José Maria Freire between 1958 and 1959 (who trained under Nilo Veloso, who trained under George Gracie).
Then, he improved his striking (mainly kicks) under Agatângelo Braga.
Inoki invited him to train & compete in Japan (86 fights).
There he trained Sumo, and he taught BJJ (!)
Now, that´s quite fascinatin´: between 1975 & 1977, a generation of fighters had apparently the opportunity to learn BJJ,
but to no avail, it seems...
Was Ivan 'sidelined' by Karl Gotch´s influence? (Ivan even challenged him, but seems Gotch ducked...)
Ivan was for sure top 2 GOAT of the Vale Tudo era, along with Euclides Pereira.
His record is obviously hard to assess: 570 W - 30 D - 1 DQ (vs Willlem Ruska, Judo Gold Medal in 1972)
He was also South American Greco-Roman Champ.
But his international career & the hespect he earned among his peers proved he was legit, indeed.
He had a Judo & Luta Live background.
[Luta Livre ~ Catch Wrasslin´+greco-roman wrasslin´+JJJ]
Let´s try to 'deconstruct' Ivan´s skill set & its evolution:
He first learnt JJ with Osmar Mousinho “Biuce”, who trained under Herondino.
He then competed in Boxing.
Then, he trained with Touro Novo, & with José Maria Freire between 1958 and 1959 (who trained under Nilo Veloso, who trained under George Gracie).
Then, he improved his striking (mainly kicks) under Agatângelo Braga.
Inoki invited him to train & compete in Japan (86 fights).
There he trained Sumo, and he taught BJJ (!)
Now, that´s quite fascinatin´: between 1975 & 1977, a generation of fighters had apparently the opportunity to learn BJJ,
but to no avail, it seems...
Was Ivan 'sidelined' by Karl Gotch´s influence? (Ivan even challenged him, but seems Gotch ducked...)
And even "Gracies" like Waldemar Santana [or Rolls, but difficult to check] were not restricted to "Pure" BJJ.
Waldemar was into BJJ, Boxe & Capoeira.
"Now I had to make a decision. My opponent 'Adema' Santana was a 25 year old black man, and was a boxing heavy weight champion. He was 4th dan in judo, and a capoeira champion as well. He was 183cm had a well proportioned impressive physique. His weight was close to 100kg. Bahia, where the match took place, is a port city where black slaves were unloaded. The slaves were forbidden to carry a weapon. As a result, many martial arts were developed by them, I heard. Vale Tudo is one of such martial arts. In the south of Sao Paulo, pro wrestling is popular. But the farther one goes to the north, the more popular Vale Tudo becomes.
In Vale Tudo, no foul is allowed. 1 foul results in an immediate disqualification. No shoes are allowed.
In Vale Tudo, no foul is allowed. 1 foul results in an immediate disqualification. No shoes are allowed. When the fighters are separated, they are not allowed to strike with a fist, and they have to use open hand strikes. But once they get in contact with each other, every type of strike is allowed but groin strikes. All types of throws and joint locks are legal. The winner is decided when one of the fighters is KO'd or surrenders. Biting and hair pulling were illegal. Since bare knuckle punches are traded, taking direct 2 or 3 hits in the eye means the end of the fight. I was told there have been many cases in which a fighter got hit in the eye with an elbow, and the eyeball popped out from the socket by half, and got carried to the hospital by an ambulance. Therefore, there were always 2 ambulances at the entrance of the arena."
In Vale Tudo, no foul is allowed. 1 foul results in an immediate disqualification. No shoes are allowed.
In Vale Tudo, no foul is allowed. 1 foul results in an immediate disqualification. No shoes are allowed. When the fighters are separated, they are not allowed to strike with a fist, and they have to use open hand strikes. But once they get in contact with each other, every type of strike is allowed but groin strikes. All types of throws and joint locks are legal. The winner is decided when one of the fighters is KO'd or surrenders. Biting and hair pulling were illegal. Since bare knuckle punches are traded, taking direct 2 or 3 hits in the eye means the end of the fight. I was told there have been many cases in which a fighter got hit in the eye with an elbow, and the eyeball popped out from the socket by half, and got carried to the hospital by an ambulance. Therefore, there were always 2 ambulances at the entrance of the arena."
The thing is... People tend to believe that the Vale Tudo era was one-dimensional because of the Gracie challenges & their 'ideology': TMA vs TMA.
But this was only ONE branch of them Gracies. And the Vale Tudo scene as a whole didnt share the same MMA ideology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1pzOsUOKrk
Bonus: The Original Atomic Butt drop!:
2/ The Pre-'Modern' Era [1990s]:
I could focus here on 'high profile' fighters like Marco Huas for instance ("If my opponent is a grappler, I outstrike him, if he´s a striker, I take him to the ground") but people would claim that this narrative only fits the elite fighters.
Hence, let´s try to check 'obscure' ol´school fighters...
> Brazilian Vale Tudo scene:
James Adler (Kickboxing mainly...and judo too) vs Fera Do Acari:
Was @ Desafio - International Vale Tudo [1/1/1995]
Adler, a striker, pullin´ no less than an armbar...:
@ 0mn50s:
CHUTEBOXE:
Rudimar Fedrigo jus´dropped a massive interview, spittin´ some real science...
Unfortunately, it´s in portuguese, and there´s too many valuable info in it, cant really make cliffs (2 hrs), but I´ll try to make several threads about it.
Some of 'The Day' Threads have already dealt with some of the things he´s recallin´, especially Chuteboxe & the Vale Tudo era...
Now... @ 16mn30:
Rudimar explains that his original vision, when he started Chuteboxe in the 1990s, was an union between MT & BJJ, which would explain their fighters´ underrated ground game....
Master Nico (Carlson´s friend from Rio) was the original BJJ teacher there.
He was introduced by Rafael Cordeiro.
Unlike in Rio, in Curitiba there was no 'ideological' limitation for such a plan.
> Japanese scene:
Gono... Me, Myself, and I...
Started as a samboist @ the Lumax Cup, JJJ Tournament 1995-96 (kindah proto-MMA> JJJ + Karate + Judo) where ATG Japz started their career (DapunkMinowaman, TK too...)
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x705jst
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x705fhe
[See some gifs in the 4th page]
> American scene:
Guy Mezger :
[see some gifs in the 4th page].
Background: Wrasslin´ (High School), boxing, karate.
Competition: : Kickboxing [record = 20-2 (19 KO), held the US heavyweight title.
Transitionned to MMA: 1st UFC, then Pancrase, where he had to learn the ground game, to be competitive.
In his 7th Pancrase fight, 1 year after havin´ transitionned to MMA (!), pulled no less than 2 kneebars against Gregory Smit [Pancrase - Truth 1, 1996]
Din Thomas, BJJ & Legit Boxing [see some gifs in the 2nd page].
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x703pxg
> Dutch scene:
Allistair 'Reem':
Valentijn must beone of the main reasons that explain Allistair´s smooth transition to MMA.
In his very 1st MMA fights (Rings/M-1 MFC/2Hot2Handle), Allistair was already looking for the groundgame, quickly clinching to get the TD and work for a sub, more than anything else.
Here, in his 5th MMA fight, the 'striker' pulled no less than a slick armbar.
Was @ Rings: Millennium Combine 1 [2000]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDQXrtOIJjs
[see the gif in the 4th page]
> Russian Vale Tudo scene:
The Day Kurmanov The Boxer submitted Ahmedov The JJ...:
Was @ IAFC - Absolute Fighting Championship 2: Day 2 [May / 02 / 1997]
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-kurmanov-the-boxer-submitted-ahmedov-the-jj-14.3874565/
Here we have an ol´man, presenting himself as a boxer, pullin´a Leg Scissor Choke:
Submittin´ a young lion, a submission artist (even though undersized, the weight numbers are obviously wrong
here)...jus´like ol´Vet Kopylov would submit young gun BJJ Castelo Branco in Rings a few years later...
The Day Amar Suloev MightyMoused Oganov:
Was @ Pankration World Championship 2000 Day 1 [Russian NHB]:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-amar-suloev-mightymoused-oganov.3871769/
Suloev, while fightin´@ openweight most of the time, had fluid & versatile striking, great TDD, slick judo throws, great boxing defence, serious ground game.
Ivan Gerus:
Capable grappler, showcased some interesting Boxing skills (defensively too):
@ IAFC - Russian Open Cup 3 [August 29, 1997 - Moscow, Russia]::
Ivan Chestowukov vs Ivan Guerus
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6z2gio
Akhmed Sagidgusainov:
A boxer who would train under Volk Han [pre-RTT], showing versatility on the ground:
Some of his fights:
NOTE: More skill sets will be progressively added in this thread.
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/#post-144836697
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/#post-144836697
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
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