Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 19] - Skillset & MMA Evolution - The MW Transitional Era(s)...

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Today :[JMMA & USA MMA Scenes]

Skillset & MMA Evolution - The MW Transitional Era(s)...

Following the previous threads about HWs & LHWs & WWs:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/

Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of this one:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/

Some 'evolutionists' here keep claimin´ that the game has evolved exponentially,
and that the current generation is definitely more talented/less 'one-dimensional' than the previous one, from the 2000s.

> Context:

In retrospect, NHB/Vale Tudo was much less refined...Even the BJJ Black Belts, most of the time, would GNP...

If you look at the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenges [1984 or 1991], or hardcore tournaments like WVC or IVC,
half of the dudes invited were BJJ dudes, and the fights were pretty gruelling ones, not really technical.

Early Pancrase tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, with fighters working on their
ground game and trying to built a submission game (that´s why GNP was forbidden, great idea...).
A talented generation willing to create cross-training teams,and adapt their game to a new fight configuration, technically more demanding .

Rings too had this same objective. And you could say that both had a clear influence in Early Pride´s game...

Then, Pride added some rules, that made it difficult for submission artists to take risks on the ground:
[till the knee-to-a-downed-opponent rule, technically - Pride 13],

> Now, about the 'Well-Roundedness' Concept:

Ground control has become the new paradigm these days.
Modern Rules & Fight Configuration led the path to a new Skill Set Evolution.

Today, the best "well rounded" fighters are 'defensively' well-rounded, in grappling for instance:
they know for sure how to defend this or that submission.

But one might argue that their offensive submission game has become sub-par,
since most coaches now "prohibit" risky subs like leglocks or armbars for instance.

Well-Roundedness has consequently become limited to its poorest dimension.

But, this cannot be only about a defensive posture:
A "well-rounded" fighter, in his higher and richer meaning,should be someone who can be a threat wherever the fight goes [shout-out to Marco Huas].

Hence, let´s try to assess this Evolution Thing, now with the MWs:

Notes:

1- Pride had a different MW div. (<205lbs)

2- Some fighters would/could realistically be MWs today:

Wand, for sure
Vitor Gracie, for sure
Arona, but as he stated recently:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/tiger-arona-his-awaited-comeback.3803249/
he´s against weight-cutting and would fight @ LHW if/when he´ll come back.


2007: Pride FC + UFC :

1. Anderson Silva (32)
2. Paulo Filho (29)
3. Dan Henderson (37)
4. Rich Franklin (33)
5. Matt Lindland (37)
6. Nate Marquardt (28)
7. Denis Kang (30)
8. Amar Suloev (31)
9. Murilo Bustamante (41)
10. Yushin Okami (26)


2018: UFC + Bellator :

1. Robert Whittaker (27)
2. Yoel Romero (41)
3. Gegard Mousasi (32)
4. Kelvin Gastelum (27)
5. Ronaldo Souza (38)
6. Luke Rockhold (34)
7. Chris Weidman (34)
8. David Branch (37)
9. Derek Brunson (34)
10.Israel Adesanya (29)


Which Generation was indeed the most Well-Rounded one?
Which Fighters were truly the most well-rounded?

Important: this thread is not about who would win in H2H confrontations,
or who took/is taking more PEDs.
That´s why Im asking here to go beyond the clichés/myths, & to focus solely on this division (a BW comparison wouldnt make sense)...
ie 20 elite skill sets...


Matt_Hume_at_Evolve_MMA_in_Singapore.jpg


http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
 
Last edited:
gono btw said:
Well-Roundedness has consequently become limited to its poorest dimension.
Click to expand...
...and i think this has a lot to do with the modern day rules...

If you can game the system or more like game the judging criteria...if you can gain a skill-set, that is well rounded enough to get you decision wins and not taking a lot of damage, a lot of guys will just do that.

I don't really blame the fighters for it, i blame the rules...or mostly the judging criteria...
 
Buffmeister said:
...and i think this has a lot to do with the modern day rules...

If you can game the system or more like game the judging criteria...if you can gain a skill-set, that is well rounded enough to get you decision wins and not taking a lot of damage, a lot of guys will just do that.

I don't really blame the fighters for it, i blame the rules...or mostly the judging criteria...
Click to expand...
Sadly, some fighters with legit skill set (Khabib for instance), showcase a more 'ambitious' game b4 competing in the UFC [Cage/Judging Criteria/Fight Configuration]...
 
gono btw said:
someone obviously read the OP....

View attachment 463929
Click to expand...
Modern era looks more well rounded if you look at the list as a whole but Silva is the most well rounded of them all on the list. Has better striking than everyone except Isreal, has the best bottom game except Jacare, has the most accurate G and P, the only area he lacks is wrestling but he displayed superb defensive wrestling against Brunson when he turned panic wrestler because he was scared to strike with Silva.
 
Teddy Brukshot said:
Modern era looks more well rounded if you look at the list as a whole but Silva is the most well rounded of them all on the list. Has better striking than everyone except Isreal, has the best bottom game except Jacare, has the most accurate G and P, the only area he lacks is wrestling but he displayed superb defensive wrestling against Brunson when he turned panic wrestler because he was scared to strike with Silva.
Click to expand...
ok, I feel that it´s much closer here than in the 2 other threads about the HWs & LHWs...Guys like Mousasi today, or Amar Suloev back then, for instance, could/can be a threat standing or on the ground.

For instance, Suloev, while fightin´@ openweight most of the time, had fluid & versatile striking, good TDD, slick judo throws, good boxing defence, legit & creative ground game.

Others, like Lindland or Okami back then, or David Branch/ Derek Brunson/Israel Adesanya today have realistically a less well-rounded skill set.
 
Last edited:
Old school fighters went for the finish more. If the "evolution" means guys who play it safe, then yes, MMA evolved.
 
i think you'd have to separate them by not just eras, but also by world class fighters and the rest of them.

obviously, the earlier eras as a WHOLE didn't have anywhere near the skill set today's MMA fighters do, BUT the very top of the divisions even in some of the earlier eras, had fighters who have just as effective skillsets today, some maybe even MORE so, than back when they actually competed.

for me, the game itself is the same pretty much. people who claim it's evolving don't know what evolving means. THE GAME is the same, the only thing "evolving" is PEDs and nutrition, that's it.

there's little additions, like the level of athlete is going up, but it's not evolving. American wrestling is still dominant, Brazil still has a ton of fighters, etc.,

when i think of evolving, i think of the NCAA banning goal tending because 6'10 George Mikan was terrorizing teams by catching the ball before it even hit the hoop. GAME CHANGING type of shit.

the real big evolutions in the game happened in the early days, when Royce Gracie blew everyone's minds by destroying giants with his mystical jiu jitsu. or Coleman beating the absolute fuck out of everyone with a simple double leg and headbutt, so effective that they banned headbutts.

if "MMA evolutionists" think people who "knew more than one discipline" is a NEW think they're wrong. Don Frye could box and wrestle, Marco Ruas could kickbox and grapple, Bas Rutten could kickbox and grapple, Mark Kerr knew wrestling and jiu jitsu etc.,

and all this shit about "kids now a days are growing up DOING MMA" just stop. HUMANS have been doing MMA SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME. it's called A STREET FIGHT.
 
Pancake Sprawl said:
i think you'd have to separate them by not just eras, but also by world class fighters and the rest of them.

obviously, the earlier eras as a WHOLE didn't have anywhere near the skill set today's MMA fighters do, BUT the very top of the divisions even in some of the earlier eras, had fighters who have just as effective skillsets today, some maybe even MORE so, than back when they actually competed.

for me, the game itself is the same pretty much. people who claim it's evolving don't know what evolving means. THE GAME is the same, the only thing "evolving" is PEDs and nutrition, that's it.

there's little additions, like the level of athlete is going up, but it's not evolving. American wrestling is still dominant, Brazil still has a ton of fighters, etc.,

when i think of evolving, i think of the NCAA banning goal tending because 6'10 George Mikan was terrorizing teams by catching the ball before it even hit the hoop. GAME CHANGING type of shit.

the real big evolutions in the game happened in the early days, when Royce Gracie blew everyone's minds by destroying giants with his mystical jiu jitsu. or Coleman beating the absolute fuck out of everyone with a simple double leg and headbutt, so effective that they banned headbutts.

if "MMA evolutionists" think people who "knew more than one discipline" is a NEW think they're wrong. Don Frye could box and wrestle, Marco Ruas could kickbox and grapple, Bas Rutten could kickbox and grapple, Mark Kerr knew wrestling and jiu jitsu etc.,

and all this shit about "kids now a days are growing up DOING MMA" just stop. HUMANS have been doing MMA SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME. it's called A STREET FIGHT.
Click to expand...
I actually wrote about this, but in the Worldwide...

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
 
Also...being well rounded doesn't automaticly mean you are an expert at boxing, kickboxing, wrestling and bjj...at the same time.

Training on 4 elements at the same time, probably means, you will lack at at least one of those...you will have your favorite discipline and another you don't really like that much and just working on it....instead of having 'fun' while doing it...

...sure there are some exeptions like DJ....and i also throw Masvidal in there (that guy is a fucking stud!)...

What i mean is...even there are levels of being well-rounded...

Also:
A lot of the all-time-greats aren't that well rounded if you look at it...
Wand, CroCop, Coleman, Randy, Chuck...Kerr, Igor, Ortiz, the Gracies, Rampage....

And at the same time...people that are considered well rounded, today, won't be all-time-greats...
 
Buffmeister said:
Also...being well rounded doesn't automaticly mean you are an expert at boxing, kickboxing, wrestling and bjj...at the same time.

Training on 4 elements at the same time, probably means, you will lack at at least one of those...you will have your favorite discipline and another you don't really like that much and just working on it....instead of having 'fun' while doing it...

...sure there are some exeptions like DJ....and i also throw Masvidal in there (that guy is a fucking stud!)...

What i mean is...even there are levels of being well-rounded...

Also:
A lot of the all-time-greats aren't that well rounded if you look at it...
Wand, CroCop, Coleman, Randy, Chuck...Kerr, Igor, Ortiz, the Gracies, Rampage....

And at the same time...people that are considered well rounded, today, won't be all-time-greats...
Click to expand...
hmmm yeah, generally speaking, the most well-rounded dudes were/are quite forgotten ones...

Thinking about dudes like Ebenezer Braga, Goes, Suloev, etc...
 
One legit example, when Amar Suloev 'MightyMoused' Oganov @ Pankration World Championship 2000 Day 1:
[Russian NHB]


Amar Suloev.gif

And...yes... Suloev was mainly a striker who would improve drastically his ground game (was his 4th NHB fight here).

I´ll try to post the full fight in the Worldwide...
 
gono btw said:
Today :

Skillset & MMA Evolution - The MW Transitional Era(s)...

Following the previous threads about HWs & LHWs:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/

Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of this one:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/

Some 'evolutionists' here keep claimin´ that the game has evolved exponentially,
and that the current generation is definitely more talented/less 'one-dimensional' than the previous one, from the 2000s.

> Context:

In retrospect, NHB/Vale Tudo was much less refined...Even the BJJ Black Belts, most of the time, would GNP...

If you look at the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenges [1984 or 1991], or hardcore tournaments like WVC or IVC,
half of the dudes invited were BJJ dudes, and the fights were pretty gruelling ones, not really technical.

Early Pancrase tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, with fighters working on their
ground game and trying to built a submission game (that´s why GNP was forbidden, great idea...).
A talented generation willing to create cross-training teams,and adapt their game to a new fight configuration, technically more demanding .

Rings too had this same objective. And you could say that both had a clear influence in Early Pride´s game...

Then, Pride added some rules, that made it difficult for submission artists to take risks on the ground:
[till the knee-to-a-downed-opponent rule, technically - Pride 13],

> Now, about the 'Well-Roundedness' Concept:

Ground control has become the new paradigm these days.
Modern Rules & Fight Configuration led the path to a new Skill Set Evolution.

Today, the best "well rounded" fighters are 'defensively' well-rounded, in grappling for instance:
they know for sure how to defend this or that submission.

But one might argue that their offensive submission game has become sub-par,
since most coaches now "prohibit" risky subs like leglocks or armbars for instance.

Well-Roundedness has consequently become limited to its poorest dimension.

But, this cannot be only about a defensive posture:
A "well-rounded" fighter, in his higher and richer meaning,should be someone who can be a threat wherever the fight goes [shout-out to Marco Huas].

Hence, let´s try to assess this Evolution Thing, now with the MWs:

Notes:

1- Pride had a different MW div. (<205lbs)

2- Some fighters would/could realistically be MWs today:

Wand, for sure
Vitor Gracie, for sure
Arona, but as he stated recently:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/tiger-arona-his-awaited-comeback.3803249/
he´s against weight-cutting and would fight @ LHW if/when he´ll come back.


2007: Pride FC + UFC :

1. Anderson Silva (32)
2. Paulo Filho (29)
3. Dan Henderson (37)
4. Rich Franklin (33)
5. Matt Lindland (37)
6. Nate Marquardt (28)
7. Denis Kang (30)
8. Amar Suloev (31)
9. Murilo Bustamante (41)
10. Yushin Okami (26)


2018: UFC + Bellator :

1. Robert Whittaker (27)
2. Yoel Romero (41)
3. Gegard Mousasi (32)
4. Kelvin Gastelum (27)
5. Ronaldo Souza (38)
6. Luke Rockhold (34)
7. Chris Weidman (34)
8. David Branch (37)
9. Derek Brunson (34)
10.Israel Adesanya (29)


Which Generation was indeed the most Well-Rounded one?
Which Fighters were truly the most well-rounded?

Important: this thread is not about who would win in H2H confrontations,
or who took/is taking more PEDs.
That´s why Im asking here to go beyond the clichés/myths, & to focus solely on this division (a BW comparison wouldnt make sense)...


View attachment 463905
Click to expand...
Today MW is way more well-rounded and better . Sad that two of the fighters who have the most title defenses in UFC history Demetrious Johnson and Anderoid Silva fought mostly against weak competition.
 
dawzz said:
Today MW is way more well-rounded and better . Sad that two of the fighters who have the most title defenses in UFC history Demetrious Johnson and Anderoid Silva fought mostly against weak competition.
Click to expand...
Depends, can be deceptive...

Would a pure striker today (Whitaker for instance) pull something like this:

Amar Suloev.gif
 
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