Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 16] - Siamese Brothers, The 2 HW GOATs...

It didn't work yet again..

Who is your top 5 GOAT then maybe it doesn't like me asking just one. :D
#1> hard to assess, too close.. I tend to consider that Nog might be HW GOAT, while Fedor might be ahead of him in the P4P GOAT list... since he was somehow undersized...

Then... Maybe Igor...then WarMaster, then Werdum or Crocop...

What about yours?
 
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#1> hard to assess, too close.. I tend to consider that Nog might be HW GOAT, while Fedor might be ahead of him in the P4P GOAT list... since he was somehow undersized...

Then... Maybe Igor...then WarMaster, then Werdum...

What about yours?

1. Fedor
2. Nog
3. CroCop
4. Werdum (didn't like them cheery picking fights with no names at the end till he popped plus he got dealt with by Volkov who is average but big)
5. Cain (don't like the constant inactivity.. he can easily lose this spot if no fresh W's appear some think Stipe already did more)

Then we have guys like Stipe, JDS, Reem that capture/recapture the tittle again and get more W's and bump out the number 4 and 5 in my list. Ain't no one getting close to 2 and 1 any time soon n my book.

(My own ideal scenario is Cain to take out Francis, Stipe and Jones this year lol and he attacks that number 3 spot on the list.. silly dreams eh.. that Werdum rematch lost its shine to me now since he popped and got 2 years he will be old plus Volkov tainted him for me I don't see much value in getting that W back now)
 
1. Fedor
2. Nog
3. CroCop
4. Werdum (didn't like them cheery picking fights with no names at the end till he popped plus he got dealt with by Volkov who is average but big)
5. Cain (don't like the constant inactivity.. he can easily lose this spot if no fresh W's appear some think Stipe already did more)

Then we have guys like Stipe, JDS, Reem that capture/recapture the tittle again and get more W's and bump out the number 4 and 5 in my list. Ain't no one getting close to 2 and 1 any time soon n my book.

(My own ideal scenario is Cain to take out Francis, Stipe and Jones this year lol and he attacks that number 3 spot on the list.. silly dreams eh.. that Werdum rematch lost its shine to me now since he popped and got 2 years he will be old plus Volkov tainted him for me I don't see much value in getting that W back now)
The HW landscape is not very bright for Cain.. Cant even fight DC... Werdum out of the UFC (and realistically shot), Reem way past his physical prime, Ngannou and Volkov quite one-dimensional and not really impressive...
 
1. Fedor
2. Nog
3. CroCop
4. Werdum (didn't like them cheery picking fights with no names at the end till he popped plus he got dealt with by Volkov who is average but big)
5. Cain (don't like the constant inactivity.. he can easily lose this spot if no fresh W's appear some think Stipe already did more)

Then we have guys like Stipe, JDS, Reem that capture/recapture the tittle again and get more W's and bump out the number 4 and 5 in my list. Ain't no one getting close to 2 and 1 any time soon n my book.

(My own ideal scenario is Cain to take out Francis, Stipe and Jones this year lol and he attacks that number 3 spot on the list.. silly dreams eh.. that Werdum rematch lost its shine to me now since he popped and got 2 years he will be old plus Volkov tainted him for me I don't see much value in getting that W back now)


Wow all Cain has to do is beat Francis, Stipe, AND Bones to maybe pass CroCop???

Guy went 5-6 in the ufc, never won a major title, lost 4 times in Pride, and beat exactly ONE great hw (barnett).

wow
 
The HW landscape is not very bright for Cain.. Cant even fight DC... Werdum out of the UFC (and realistically shot), Reem way past his physical prime, Ngannou and Volkov quite one-dimensional and not really impressive...

Yea but Francis is a scary fight coming in cold from almost 3 years sidelined by injuries and contract negotiations, Francis maybe is a one trick pony but it's a damn good trick and he is athletic enough size,speed,strength to pose issues if you make mistakes. If he passes that test then I assume better fighters await him.

Like I said we have Stipe and maybe soon Jones (dude really has nothing left at 205) to spice up things.
 
Wow all Cain has to do is beat Francis, Stipe, AND Bones to maybe pass CroCop???

Guy went 5-6 in the ufc, never won a major title, lost 4 times in Pride, and beat exactly ONE great hw (barnett).

wow

I'm looking at CroCop overall my man the dude has like 50 fights in MMA alone.. Cain has so little compare to him and I know quality over quantity and all that but there is a point of diminishing returns.. indeed he wasn't successful in the UFC but before and even after the dude is still doing the damn thing cans or not it counts.
 
Wow all Cain has to do is beat Francis, Stipe, AND Bones to maybe pass CroCop???

Guy went 5-6 in the ufc, never won a major title, lost 4 times in Pride, and beat exactly ONE great hw (barnett).

wow
Cro Cop was a top 3 Heavyweight in the world for about 6 or 7 years. He did win a major title, the 2006 Open Weight Grand Prix. And he has beaten more great HW besides just Barnett 3x. He also beat Aleks, Herring, Igor, Coleman and more. He has about 15 to 20 quality wins.

Forget his UFC record. He had over 100 fights by that point. He also had a lot of injuries and surgeries around that time. You ever watch any other sports and see great athletes deteriorate over the years? Judging Mirko for his UFC run would be like judging Shaq during his run with the Celtics.
 
Yea but Francis is a scary fight coming in cold from almost 3 years sidelined by injuries and contract negotiations, Francis maybe is a one trick pony but it's a damn good trick and he is athletic enough size,speed,strength to pose issues if you make mistakes. If he passes that test then I assume better fighters await him.

Like I said we have Stipe and maybe soon Jones (dude really has nothing left at 205) to spice up things.
Let´s see Ngannou´s evolution, seems he was workin´ on his submission game b4 the TS...
 
Cro Cop was a top 3 Heavyweight in the world for about 6 or 7 years. He did win a major title, the 2006 Open Weight Grand Prix. And he has beaten more great HW besides just Barnett 3x. He also beat Aleks, Herring, Igor, Coleman and more. He has about 15 to 20 quality wins.

Forget his UFC record. He had over 100 fights by that point. He also had a lot of injuries and surgeries around that time. You ever watch any other sports and see great athletes deteriorate over the years? Judging Mirko for his UFC run would be like judging Shaq during his run with the Celtics.

Arguing CroCop over any of the following as an all-time HW ---Cain, DC, JDS, Reem, Werdum---in terms of resume or head to head is absurd. I even left out Stipe.

Completely asinine.

And no I won't ignore his UFC career. It was 6 months after that major title you say he won.

LOL @ Aleks, Coleman, and Herring as "elite" wins. Coleman's like 12 years older and dropped 3 straight before going to Pride.

DC is unfefeated at HW and has never lost a round or been in any sort of trouble. How many Japanese MWs would he have to crush to pass Mirko?

Good lord.

Next i'll hear about how hugo duarte was better than brock.
 
Arguing CroCop over any of the following as an all-time HW ---Cain, DC, JDS, Reem, Werdum---in terms of resume or head to head is absurd. I even left out Stipe.

And no I won't ignore his UFC career. It was 6 months after that major title you say he won.

Rules and environment changed over night to worse.
How would Cain and DC do in RINGS rules for example, with no fence, no elbows, no ground and pound to the head, and with rope escape rule for their opponents to use for stand up?

Cro Cop has 6 wins vs fighters who were near the top of MMA and considered elite at the time: 3x Barnett, Herring, Fujita 1, Wanderlei.
How many others have?

Also beating Igor, Randleman, Coleman then is completely same as beating Hunt, Arlovski, Overeem, Mir in recent years.

Cro Cop beats new fighters on volume of good wins, and that can not be ignored. Beating Fujita 2, Alex Emelianenko, Gonzaga, King Mo, Aliakbari, Waterman, Yoshida, Magomedov, Ishii 2x, Sakuraba + wins mentioned above also counts and it brings points in his favour against newer UFC stars who fought a lot less, and achieved less good wins.

It is completely asinine to glorfy MMA careers of 10 - 15 fights total.
 
Rules and environment changed over night to worse.
How would Cain and DC do in RINGS rules for example, with no fence, no elbows, no ground and pound to the head, and with rope escape rule for their opponents to use for stand up?

Cro Cop has 6 wins vs fighters who were near the top of MMA and considered elite at the time: 3x Barnett, Herring, Fujita 1, Wanderlei.
How many others have?

Also beating Igor, Randleman, Coleman then is completely same as beating Hunt, Arlovski, Overeem, Mir in recent years.

Cro Cop beats new fighters on volume of good wins, and that can not be ignored. Beating Fujita 2, Alex Emelianenko, Gonzaga, King Mo, Aliakbari, Waterman, Yoshida, Magomedov, Ishii 2x, Sakuraba + wins mentioned above also counts and it brings points in his favour against newer UFC stars who fought a lot less, and achieved less good wins.

It is completely asinine to glorfy MMA careers of 10 - 15 fights total.

Fulita, Herring, and Wanderlei huh? Yea way better resume than DC or jds.

Brock beat Herring like a stepchild in his 2nd fight.

Keep at it lol
 
Fulita, Herring, and Wanderlei huh? Yea way better resume than DC or jds.

Brock beat Herring like a stepchild in his 2nd fight.

Keep at it lol
Herring was Top 5 ranked fighter at the time of Cro Cop fight, contender to Nog and Fedor for title and highest spot. He was much more worn out later in 2008.
Fujita was also Top 5 ranked fighter, undefeated in combat, surrendered bout to Coleman without fighting, with wins over #2 Kerr, #9 Yvel, legend Shamrock and solid Nijman. That is score for top positions in any time.
Wanderlei was DC or Jones of 2000s.

As I and others mentioned, Cro Cop has double amount of quality wins in career than some on your list.
 
Herring was Top 5 ranked fighter at the time of Cro Cop fight, contender to Nog and Fedor for title and highest spot. He was much more worn out later in 2008.
Fujita was also Top 5 ranked fighter, undefeated in combat, surrendered bout to Coleman without fighting, with wins over #2 Kerr, #9 Yvel, legend Shamrock and solid Nijman. That is score for top positions in any time.
Wanderlei was DC or Jones of 2000s.

As I and others mentioned, Cro Cop has double amount of quality wins in career than some on your list.


Herring's best win is Gan McGee.

CroCop>>>>>>aDC lol
 
Herring's best win is Gan McGee.

CroCop>>>>>>aDC lol
hmm...nah..

He has a win over Big Cat when he was still feared/ducked/undefeated.

Context:[interviews]

1/
What do you think of the wrestling fighters?

Carlson: [1997]
Wrestling is a hard fight. The guys are very strong and have excellent technique for takedowns, and they make it very hard to win. Of course in the same weight category, Jiu-Jitsu is better. You see, Fabio Gurgel fought a guy that weighed 30Kg (66lbs) more than him. Murilo, against a monster with 40Kg (88Lbs) more.
This Tom Erickson is the most dangerous Vale-Tudo fighter out there.

Not forgetting to mention that these guys train in everything: Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, etc. not only in wrestling. You can't keep giving the advantage of weight to them."


2/
Who do you feel are the best fighters today?

Hickson: [1998]
"I feel Kerr and Erickson are very strong and that Sato and Sperry have excellent technique. But the biggest challenger would have to be Erickson."


Herring has also wins over: Igor and Kerr (both faded but still dangerous)

1 underrated win: Kochkine (RTT)
 
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Herring's best win is Gan McGee.

CroCop>>>>>>aDC lol
Herring climbed to the top in early 2000´s by beating best fighters of the turn of the century time: Vovchanchyn, Kerr & Erikson.
If you knew something about MMA history, then you would know that Herring was beeing predicted as Coleman´s sucessor as new # no. 1 by media and forums of that time. Herring was seen as first representative of new breed of evolved fighters, big, strong and good everywhere, good wrestling, understanding of ground game and submissions and good standup upgraded by training muay thai in Golden Glory in Netherlands .
He was ranked Top 3 in Nog and Fedor fights.

When you add Kongo and McGee wins, Herring has same number of Top 10 ranked wins as Frank Mir (5).
Heath also has other solid win vs Inoue, Evan Tanner, Kochkine, Schrijber, Goodrige.
 
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Warning: TLDR here...

View attachment 456141

Today:

MYTH: Fedor had a 'unique' HW run,
& was the only dominant HW in MMA History.


Note: Im not sayin´ Fedor cant be considered the HW GOAT, this is a hespectable stance, & Im OK with it.
Im tryin´ to assess something else here.

Context:

Always thought that the fights between these 2 HW GOATS were indeed the tie-breaker when it comes to determinin´ the HW GOAT.
But...No longer so sure...

Was rooting for Nog at that time, was stunned to see Fedor, with his unorthodox boxing, negating Nog´s more traditional boxing stance...
Fedor won decisively, and I acknowledged his superiority.

Still, recently, after re-watching their early runs, their very 1st fights,
I now tend to consider that this tie-breaker might not be such a decisive one
when it comes to assessing their career as a whole...

The thing is... people seems to only remember their Pride run... But there were...

3 ERAs:

1) Rings Era [Ring] :

> Fedor:

12 Fights = 11-1 (TK fight : doctor stoppage after 17 sec)

1 Night with multiple fights:
vs Arona & vs TK.

Total Rounds = 15
Decisions = 3
Submissions = 5
> versatility: RNC (x2) / Guillotine (x2) / Armbar


Quality Wins:
Arona (Dec. > controversial)
Babalu (Dec.)
(Note: Babalu was a HW back then when he started.
In this fight he was around 229 lbs while Fedor was 227 lbs.)

View attachment 456153

Controversial Fight:

> vs Arona:


View attachment 456157 View attachment 456155
Arona was a LHW in this fight, @ 202 lbs, but you´re talkin about someone who would manhandle Kerr (!) a few yrs later @ ADCC.
The Arona fight was close, was ruled a Majority Draw at the end of the 2nd Round [Draw x 2 + 1 Judge gave it to Arona].
Arona had more ground control, but Fedor had more [not really tight] submission attempts...
Obviously, you have to consider Volk Han´s claim, that he had to interfere and make Maeda influence them judges...
Still, difficult to assess, right after the RTT vs Fedor feud...


> Big Nog:

10 Fights = 8-1-1 (Draw with TK & Split Dec. Loss vs Hendo)

Total Rounds = 17
Decisions = 3 (incl.: 1 Split Dec. Win vs Kopylov & 1 Split Dec. Loss vs Hendo)
Submissions = 6
> versatility: RNC / Armbar (x3) / Americana / Arm-Triangle Choke

4 Nights with multiple fights:
vs Valentijn Overeem & vs Kochkine / vs Kopylov & vs Hendo / vs Labasanov & vs Tamura /
vs Volk Han & vs Kanehara & vs Valentijn Overeem

Quality Wins:
Valentijn Overeem (x2) (Sub.)
Yuriy Kochkine (Sub.)
Jeremy Horn (Dec.)
Labasanov (Sub.)

Quality Loss:
Hendo (undersized) (Split Dec.)

Problematic Quality Wins:
Kopylov (Split Dec.)
Volk Han (Dec.)
> way past their physical prime.
Tamura (undersized) (Sub.)

Controversial Fights:

> vs Kopylov:

Nobody talks about this fight, but I have to keep it real...

Kopylov vs Minotau Round 1... IIRC, in my mind, that was the only round Nog potentially lost in Rings...
The ol´Vet definitely schooled him in that round...
And we´re talkin´ about a Prime Minotau, grappling-wise [striking wise, his prime was after his Cuban stint, in Pride].
Obviously, Kopylov was too old & broken to sustain this pace in Rd 2, and gassed badly.
The fight ended with a Majority decision in Minotau´s favour: 2 Draws & 1 Judge gave it to him.

> vs Hendo:

Hendo was a LHW in this fight [198 lbs], while Nog was a HW [230 lbs].


https://www.mma-core.com/videos/Dan...T_1_2_Rings_King_of_Kings_1999_Final/10021298

View attachment 456151 View attachment 456161

As always, tough Hendo fight to score...
At the end of the regular time [2nd Rd], the judges had it a Draw [x3].
Hendo was declared winner at the end of the 3rd Rd, but one could say that Nog was arguably winning by
the end of the 2nd Rd
:
> 1st Rd:
Nog connected with 1 punch, Hendo had a few decent knees to the body.
Nog got the TDs, but got reversed. Nog even got the full mount (actually got 1 in each round),
but didnt transition to anything threatening...
> 2nd Rd:
Nog again got the TDs, Hendo threatened twice with [not so tight] guillotines.
Then Nog got the full mount, transitioned to a [decent] armbar but had his legs in the wrong position to secure it.
> 3rd Rd:
Both connected with punches, Hendo with a cleaner uppercut.
Then Nog got the full mount, but didnt create anything much out of it...


Verdict:
- Nog with 2 Controversial Fights, Fedor with 1. [Nog with a slightly better case vs Hendo than Fedor vs Arona...]
- Nog with realistically more [pure] Quality Wins (4>2)
- Nog with a tougher stength of schedule.
- Nog with a more versatile ground game.

Edge > Nog, easily.
Rings was tailor-made for Nog´s GOAT grappling, but Fedor showcased some
slick sequences on the ground too (see the Kerry Shall fight).



2) Pride Era [Ring] :

> Fedor:

16 Fights = 15-1 (NC vs Big Nog)
Total Rounds = 25
4 Dec. Wins
6 Subs:
Versatility: Armbar (x3) / RNC / Kimura (x2)

5 KO/TKO
1 Night with multiple fights: vs Ogawa & vs Big Nog

Quality Wins: 7
Big Nog (x2) (Dec.)
Crocop (Dec.)
Randleman (Sub.)
TK (TKO)
Fujita (Sub.)
Schilt (Dec.)

Problematic Quality Wins:
Coleman (x2)
> Way past his physical prime, even super-juiced.


> Big Nog:

22 Fights = 18-3-1 (NC)
Total Rounds = 43
5 Dec. Wins
3 Dec. Losses (1 Split vs Barnett)
11 Subs:
Versatility: Armbar (x6) / Anaconda Choke (x2) / Triangle Choke (x3)

2 KO/TKO
1 Night with multiple fights: vs Kharitonov & vs Fedor 2.

Quality Wins: 8
Schilt (Sub.)
Coleman (Sub.)
Ricco (Dec.)
Crocop (Sub.)
Herring (Sub.)
Kharitonov (Dec.)
Werdum (Dec.)
Barnett (Dec.)

Problematic Quality Wins:
Hendo
Tamura
> Undersized.

Controversial Fights:

> vs Barnett 1:
Tough 2 score...
1st Rd:
Nog was clearly outboxing him with jabz, when he got caught by a left hook.
Barnett followed to the ground, but didnt create anything substancial...
Nog even got the reversal, full mount, transitioned to a slick armbar, pretty tight,
but Barnett miraculously escaped.
2nd Rd:
Barnett got the TD, but then got reversed... Nog got the full mount, even Barnett´s back,
but lost the position.
Then Barnett finished the round stronger with 2 decent kneebar attempts...



> vs Ricco Rodriguez:
Controversial dec., but people forget that Pride´s Scoring System was a complex one:
Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...

Check da Wizard´s explanation:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PRIDE-Judge-Matt-Hume-Defends-Nog-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157


Obviously, these 2 Fedor wins over Nog were legit great, even GOAT, ones.

The question here is whether Nog can compensate overall with his Quality Wins.
Realistically, some elite competitors are missing here in Fedor´s resume:
Kharitonov, Werdum,Ricco,Barnett.

And Nog beat them all (1-1 vs Barnett).
Moreover, even though Fedor had an outstanding fight against Crocop, he did
fail to finish him, something Nog managed to do.


Verdict:

- Both with 2 Problematic Quality Wins.
- Nog with realistically more Quality Wins (8>7).
- Nog with more 'elite' competition.
- Nog with 1 Controversial Fight.
- But Fedor with 2 GOAT Wins over Nog.

Edge > Fedor, but it´s arguably close when you consider
Nog´s [slightly] tougher stength of schedule.



3) Post-Pride Era:

Note: Im gonna assess their fights till 2010, since I consider that, back in the days,
34 yrs was the realistic limit for a physical prime.


> Fedor:

6 Fights = 5-1
Multiple Orgs:
Yarennoka! / Affliction / BodogFIGHT > Ring
SF > Cage.

2 KO/TKO : punches
3 Subs :
Versatility : Armbar (x2) / RNC

1 Loss : Werdum (Triangle Choke)
Total Rounds = 7

Quality Wins: 3
Sylvia (Sub.)
Arlovski (KO)
Matt Lindland (Sub.)


> Big Nog:

5 Fights = 3-2
Org.: UFC > Cage.
2 Dec. : vs Handy & vs Herring
2 Losses : vs Cain & vs Mir > TKO
Total Rounds = 12

Quality Wins: 3
Sylvia (Sub.)
Herring (Dec.)
Handy (Dec.)

Quality Losses:
Cain (KO)
Mir (TKO)


Verdict:
- Nog with [arguably] a slightly tougher strength of schedule again.
- Fedor with less losses
- Both declining.

Edge > hard to assess, but Fedor might get the nod here.



OVERALL > both locks @ top 2 ATG HW.


I feel that:

1- Nog might be ahead of Fedor in the HW GOAT list, or at least pretty close...
This is in no case a one-man race.


but:

2- Fedor should be ahead of him in the P4P GOAT list, since he was realistically undersized @ HW.

Hespect to both.


Interesting.
I read it all.

A similar comparison could be made with JDS and Cain.
But more pronounced.
JDS is 1-2 against Cain, but he has a resume that is FAR better than Cain.
On an all time HW list, I would place JDS higher than Cain.
 
Fedor and Big Nog saved the HW division
 
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