Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 12] - Skillset & MMA Evolution - The LHW Golden Era(s)

[gono btw]

Today :

Skillset & MMA Evolution - The LHW Golden Era(s).

Following the previous threads about HWs & MWs & WWs:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/

Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of this one:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/

Some 'evolutionists' here keep claimin´ that the game has evolved exponentially,
and that the current generation is definitely more talented/less 'one-dimensional' than the previous one, from the 2000s.

> Context:

In retrospect, NHB/Vale Tudo was much less refined...Even the BJJ Black Belts, most of the time, would GNP...

If you look at the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenges [1984 or 1991], or hardcore tournaments like WVC or IVC,
half of the dudes invited were BJJ dudes, and the fights were pretty gruelling ones, not really technical.

Early Pancrase tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, with fighters working on their
ground game and trying to built a submission game (that´s why GNP was forbidden, great idea...).
A talented generation willing to create cross-training teams,and adapt their game to a new fight configuration, technically more demanding .

Rings too had this same objective. And you could say that both had a clear influence
in Early Pride´s game...

Then, Pride added some rules, that made it difficult for submission artists to take risks on the ground:
[till the knee-to-a-downed-opponent rule, technically - Pride 13],

> Now, about the 'Well-Roundedness' Concept:

Ground control has become the new paradigm these days.
Modern Rules & Fight Configuration led the path to a new Skill Set Evolution.

Today, the best "well rounded" fighters are 'defensively' well-rounded, in grappling for instance:
they know for sure how to defend this or that submission.

But one might argue that their offensive submission game has become sub-par,
since most coaches now "prohibit" risky subs like leglocks or armbars for instance.

Well-Roundedness has consequently become limited to its poorest dimension.

But, this cannot be only about a defensive posture:
A "well-rounded" fighter, in his higher and richer meaning,should be someone who can be a threat wherever the fight goes [shout-out to Marco Huas].

Hence, let´s try to assess this Evolution Thing, now with the LHWs:

Notes:

1- Pride had a MW div. (<205lbs)

2- Some fighters would realistically be MW today:

Wand, for sure
Vitor Gracie, for sure
Arona, but as he stated recently:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/tiger-arona-his-awaited-comeback.3803249/
he´s against weight-cutting and would fight @ LHW if/when he´ll come back.


2005: Pride FC + UFC :

Wanderlei Silva (29)
Maurício Rua (24)
Quinton Jackson (27)
Antonio Rogerio Nogueira (29)
Alistair Overeem (25)
Ricardo Arona (27)
Randy Couture (42)
Tito Ortiz (30)
Chuck Lidell (36)
Babalu Sobral (30) or Vitor Belfort (28)


2018: UFC + Bellator :

1. Daniel Cormier (39)
2. Alexander Gustafsson (31)
3. Ryan Bader (35)
4. Volkan Oezdemir (29)
5. Phil Davis (33)
6. Jan Blachowicz (35)
7. Jimi Manuwa (38)
8. Ilir Latifi (35)
9. Ovince St. Preux (35) or Corey Anderson (28)

+ JBJ (31)


Which Generation was indeed the most Well-Rounded one?
Which Fighters were truly the most well-rounded?

Important: this thread is not about who would win in H2H confrontations,
or who took/is taking more PEDs.
That´s why Im asking here to go beyond the clichés/myths... from both sides... & to focus solely on this division (a BW comparison wouldnt make sense)...

Spoiler: 'DECONS' Threads

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

 

[Ideanudge]

Pride it seems has a lot of primarily converts from kickboxing and brawlers strikers, with exception of Nogueira and Couture

UFC in 2018 has fighters more in tune with the MMA side of fighting and all incorporate distance control and have advanced wrestling grappling awareness. Nowadays almost no leglocks work at LHW and they are generally quickly defended. Saying that it is because gyms supposedly take safety precautions so athletes can't practice those moves, isn't based on any clear research whether it is indeed the case. Besides, the logistics of it can get tricky as it we could start a hypothesis that with more regular training of leglocks and armbars, the joints weaken and fighters become more susceptible to the submissions.

 

[Echo_Bliss]

2005 had more technical fighters, some who came to form and others who fell from grace - many of the 2018 list were nobodies in 2005 and didn't necessarily get better over time.

 

[gono btw]

Pride it seems has a lot of primarily converts from kickboxing and brawlers strikers, with exception of Nogueira and Couture

UFC in 2018 has fighters more in tune with the MMA side of fighting and all incorporate distance control and have advanced wrestling grappling awareness.

depends...

Look at the Reem case, for instance:
Allistair´s smooth transition to MMA, in his very 1st MMA fights (Rings/M-1 MFC/2Hot2Handle) : Allistair was already ready and looking for the groundgame, quickly clinching to get the TD and work for a sub more than anything else.

On the other side, Vitor Gracie´s guard was potentially overrated...

Now, Shogun was obviously more famous for his violence & stomps, but there was some pretty technical groundgame at the base... check his scrambles/transitions on the ground...

View attachment 438739


That´s why Im asking here to go beyond the clichés/myths... from both sides...

 

[gono btw]

Pride it seems has a lot of primarily converts from kickboxing and brawlers strikers, with exception of Nogueira and Couture

UFC in 2018 has fighters more in tune with the MMA side of fighting and all incorporate distance control and have advanced wrestling grappling awareness. Nowadays almost no leglocks work at LHW and they are generally quickly defended. Saying that it is because gyms supposedly take safety precautions so athletes can't practice those moves, isn't based on any clear research whether it is indeed the case. Besides, the logistics of it can get tricky as it we could start a hypothesis that with more regular training of leglocks and armbars, the joints weaken and fighters become more susceptible to the submissions.

since you edited: about technical evolution:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-4.3803333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5.3807975/

 

[Arrrrgh]

I mean you are pretty much arguing semantics. You more or less admit that fighters CAN be more well rounded today because they have more information at their fingertips to learn by but you argue rule changes have made fighter's less well rounded.
Correct me if I am misunderstanding you -- I did not read the post, just glossed over.

With that said, I disagree. I think you have to look at how well rounded a fighter is in the context of the rules of the fight but you can't really compare that to skillsets under different rules because we don't know how a fighter who never fought under those rules would have fared.

If you really wanted to study this you would probably need a much larger sample size and you would have to define well roundedness more clearly. What makes a fighter well rounded? What are the criteria? How can we measure it? Can we measure it accurately?

My point is I like what you are trying to do but I think it is all subjective, much like the P4P debates.

With that said, objectively we can say fighters CAN learn more techniques today because there are more techniques and schools to learn from. Therefore I'd say fighting as a whole is perhaps not more well rounded but definitely more skillfull today because there is more competition today than ever before.

 

[Mga223]

LHW is dog shit atm but the top 2 in DC and Jones beat every fighter from 2005.

Those 2 are also the most well rounded fighters in all those names.

 

[gono btw]

LHW is dog shit atm but the top 2 in DC and Jones beat every fighter from 2005.

Those 2 are also the most well rounded fighters in all those names.

someone didnt read the OP...

 

[Fesaine]

Look you can deny all you want but that doesn't make it a fact.

MMA has evolved and is continually evolving. many great champs and analysts like Cormier and Hardy agree that MMA is a young sport and is continually evolving.
just try to shut up and stop arguing about something that you're not familiar in. unless you truly think you know more about MMA than them.
https://www.mmafighting.com/2018/1/...uss-biggest-areas-of-evolution-in-mma-in-2017

 

[gono btw]

I mean you are pretty much arguing semantics. You more or less admit that fighters CAN be more well rounded today because they have more information at their fingertips to learn by but you argue rule changes have made fighter's less well rounded.
Correct me if I am misunderstanding you -- I did not read the post, just glossed over.

With that said, I disagree. I think you have to look at how well rounded a fighter is in the context of the rules of the fight but you can't really compare that to skillsets under different rules because we don't know how a fighter who never fought under those rules would have fared.

If you really wanted to study this you would probably need a much larger sample size and you would have to define well roundedness more clearly. What makes a fighter well rounded? What are the criteria? How can we measure it? Can we measure it accurately?

My point is I like what you are trying to do but I think it is all subjective, much like the P4P debates.

With that said, objectively we can say fighters CAN learn more techniques today because there are more techniques and schools to learn from. Therefore I'd say fighting as a whole is perhaps not more well rounded but definitely more skillfull today because there is more competition today than ever before.

if you didnt read the post, cant discuss.

 

[Mga223]

someone didnt read the OP...

Well the 2 most well rounded fighters are

Jones and DC so.

2018 is more well rounded.

 

[gono btw]

Look you can deny all you want but that doesn't make it a fact.

mma has evolved and is continue evolving. many great champs and analysts agree mma is a young sport and is continue evolving
https://www.mmafighting.com/2018/1/...uss-biggest-areas-of-evolution-in-mma-in-2017

Problem is that you never read the OP or even what you post, just like last time...

 

[Newave]

I read an article on the statistics website five thirty eight that was about comparing past generation athletes to current athletes. It said:

“Today’s athletes aren’t playing the same game as yesterday’s. Strategies, styles and even rules change dramatically from decade to decade, and in most sports other than horse racing, modern athletes would crush historical greats. It’s easy to think that the dominant players of the past would be just as effective as their modern counterparts with current training, conditioning, etc. — but I’m not buying it. Historical greats frequently dominated a smaller pool of players or excelled in an immature game. And there’s no guarantee that their previous success means they would respond well to modern training techniques or would fit into the modern game.“

 

[gono btw]

Well the 2 most well rounded fighters are

Jones and DC so.

2018 is more well rounded.

20 elite fighters to discuss in the OP.

 

[Fesaine]

Problem is that you never read the OP or even what you post, just like last time...

Doesn't matter, we all know what you're implying.
Try to study and understand mma betters before making a shit thread like this.

 

[gono btw]

I read an article on the statistics website five thirty eight that was about comparing past generation athletes to current athletes. It said:

“Today’s athletes aren’t playing the same game as yesterday’s. Strategies, styles and even rules change dramatically from decade to decade, and in most sports other than horse racing, modern athletes would crush historical greats. It’s easy to think that the dominant players of the past would be just as effective as their modern counterparts with current training, conditioning, etc. — but I’m not buying it. Historical greats frequently dominated a smaller pool of players or excelled in an immature game. And there’s no guarantee that their previous success means they would respond well to modern training techniques or would fit into the modern game.“

See the last line of the OP.

On a sidenote: since you´re widening the scope, I suggest you ask, for instance, any hardcore boxing fan if the 4 Aces would be dominant today...

 

[gono btw]

Doesn't matter, we all know what you're implying.
Try to study and understand mma betters before making shit thread like this.

Problem is that your posts are never very clever, last time you responded about BWs´ evolution about the HWs Case...

I suggest you avoid my threads.

 

[Fesaine]

Problem is that your posts are never very clever, last time you responded about BWs evolution about the HWs Case...

I suggest you avoid my threads.

your whole point is about that MMA is still stuck in 2006. doesn't matter BW or HW, you would still try to make the same shit points that a toddler could debunk.

 

[gono btw]

your whole points is arguing that mma is still stuck in 2006. doesn't matter BW or HW, you would still try to make the same shit points that a toddler could debunk.

so why did you click and are losing my time?

 

[Fesaine]

so why did you click and are losing my time?

Why did i click? I click on it just to see how casual and ignorance you are about MMA.
And is fun to proving you wrong with actual well supported evidences

 

[gono btw]

The did i click? I click on it just to see how casual and ignorance you are about MMA.
And is fun to proving you wrong with actual well supported evidences

great, but dont waste your time, just dont click, you´re an OG and Im a noob.

Happy?