DEBATE: Wlad as a champion in history

I think people tend to devalue his resume because he wasnt in the most competitive era but thats not really a realistic criteria to use if you are trying to assess cross generational greatness. Is it simply impossible fighter A is greater than fighter B if they happen to be from certain eras? I think thats a bit silly.
 
Kim Jong Un said:
I think people tend to devalue his resume because he wasnt in the most competitive era but thats not really a realistic criteria to use if you are trying to assess cross generational greatness. Is it simply impossible fighter A is greater than fighter B if they happen to be from certain eras? I think thats a bit silly.
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I agree with this post 100%!
 
djacobox372 said:
If they had fought we all know who would have won.
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Doesn't define who had the better legacy. Roy Jones would have beaten Sugar Ray Robinson doesn't mean he had a better career than Robinson.
 
svmVR2097 said:
Holmes is still the 4th best HW at worst, probably 3rd best.

I think the best thing about Wlad’s career, and probably something that won’t happen as much today, is showing you can overcome early losses to be an all time great. Unfortunately in a Post-Mayweather world, 1 loss often defines you as bum in most peoples eyes unless they happen before the casuals get to know who a fighter is.

10 year unbeaten streaks at a top of a division will do that for you though.
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I appreciate that you have Holmes ranked that high but most people won't, especially the wider you cast the net with criteria. Holmes is probably top 10 in some conventional lists, but his resume was around Klitschko's and he looked questionable in some of his wins. Yes he didn't lose till Spinks, but, again, I am not arguing with you, merely saying I don't see many ranking him that highly. You could ask me: "fine, who, then?" but I don't have a horse in this race, just saying you might be among the proud few who called him that highly.
 
1. Ali
2. Lennox
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky
6. Larry Holmes
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. George Foreman

imo.
 
Vergilius said:
1. Ali
2. Lennox
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky
6. Larry Holmes
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. George Foreman

imo.
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I have mine ready for copy paste but it’s like this for me:
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Jack Johnson
6. Foreman
7. Holyfield
8. Marciano
9. Frazier
10. W. Klitschko
 
Jonny Ninja said:
He didn’t beat the real contenders but tbf he was almost 40 when he fought fury, over 40 with Joshua. All fighter are slipping by that age, no matter how well you take care of yourself. Furys a bad match up for him anytime, but he’d have knocked Joshua out if he was a few years younger.
David Haye was a real threat to him, and prime povetkin was a very good win. The strength of that era is a double edged sword. He had an incredibly dominant and impressive run, but is penalised because he didn’t appear to have any real challenges.
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When he unified against Ibragimov in '08, that was the first unification fight in the HW division since Lewis/Holyfield in 1999.
Povetkin had been ranked 2 for years when they met. Pulev as well. When you look at the top 10 pretty much each year up until he lost in 2015(and even then) he always had 4-5 names in the top 10 he had beaten. Chagaev was like top 5 if not top 3. Got to give Byrd his credit as well

Tyson Fury if you take the top 10 from Ring Magazine year end at 2019 currently has 1 name from the top 10 on his record and has never had more than 1 at any time going all the way back to his Wlad win in 2015. Joshua has had at one point 4. Wilder I believe has had 2 at one time.

I think it just shows how consistently Wlad was facing quality opponents, and that has a lot to do with him being unified champ and contenders having to come to him if they wanted to fight for a title.
 
He's top 10, without a doubt. He cleaned out the division and reigned for 10 years. He has wins over Pulev, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Haye, and Thompson.

It's not his fault he was so much better than everyone else.
 
svmVR2097 said:
When he unified against Ibragimov in '08, that was the first unification fight in the HW division since Lewis/Holyfield in 1999.
Povetkin had been ranked 2 for years when they met. Pulev as well. When you look at the top 10 pretty much each year up until he lost in 2015(and even then) he always had 4-5 names in the top 10 he had beaten. Chagaev was like top 5 if not top 3. Got to give Byrd his credit as well

Tyson Fury if you take the top 10 from Ring Magazine year end at 2019 currently has 1 name from the top 10 on his record and has never had more than 1 at any time going all the way back to his Wlad win in 2015. Joshua has had at one point 4. Wilder I believe has had 2 at one time.

I think it just shows how consistently Wlad was facing quality opponents, and that has a lot to do with him being unified champ and contenders having to come to him if they wanted to fight for a title.
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I’m certainly not saying he avoided fighters, he didn’t! His issue was the real threats to him came before he reached the top - Lewis, Holyfield - or when he was past his best - fury, Joshua. It’s bad luck tbh and if affects how some fans view him.

my criticism of fury had always been his standard of opponents outside if the 3 title fights. It’s been terrible. Hopefully that changes now
 
Jonny Ninja said:
I’m certainly not saying he avoided fighters, he didn’t! His issue was the real threats to him came before he reached the top - Lewis, Holyfield - or when he was past his best - fury, Joshua. It’s bad luck tbh and if affects how some fans view him.

my criticism of fury had always been his standard of opponents outside if the 3 title fights. It’s been terrible. Hopefully that changes now
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Would he really get much credit if it was him beating Holyfield instead of Ibragimov beating Holyfield?
 
svmVR2097 said:
I have mine ready for copy paste but it’s like this for me:
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Jack Johnson
6. Foreman
7. Holyfield
8. Marciano
9. Frazier
10. W. Klitschko
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Out of curiosity why do you rank Jack Johnson ahead of those other guys?
 
Kim Jong Un said:
Out of curiosity why do you rank Jack Johnson ahead of those other guys?
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Transcended boxing. First black heavyweight champion. Was literally forced to flee the country, while he was champion, because the country was so racist that him being black and having a white wife and traveling across state lines was illegal then. Wins and resume were as legit as they come at the time.

there are question marks, especially with him avoiding the black champions of the time while he was champion continuing the color ban, especially Langford.

Johnson was unquestionably the best HW of his era. Foreman, Holyfield, and Frazier can’t claim that. Marciano was in a weak era and beat up on older fighters in Louis and Walcott(who was the oldest champion up until that point at 38) , Moore actually defeated the top contenders before they could challenge him but he’s a great champion the biggest thing that works for him is his 0 however.
 
Vitali chose his path. There is no way to know for a fact if he would've mirrored or exceeded Wladimirs reign because at the end of the day Wlad was the one in there and fighting. The constant comparison is extremely unfair imo.

Anyway, Wlads reign will grow more appreciated with time. And the dude also picked himself up from the floor both literally and from a career standpoint and unified the division after it was split up. Maybe he didn't have that big name win. But now we are seeing that guys like povetkin and pulev are showing that maybe klitchko era wasn't so weak.

I think once you get over the fact that vitali was his brother and he had an ugly style, plus the fact of his early losses, i think you can make an argument for top 5. Not saying I would put him there. But its not completely out of the question imo.
 
treelo said:
no worries, i guess i differ then in that opinion, and im not sure Wlad is even top 10 considering his losses and that he didnt redeem most of them
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How many did Holyfield, Foreman, and Frazier redeem?
 
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