Dealing with huggers?

[Balto]

I dont know man, I have rarely seen (never) a guy who is worth a shit get tapped from mount pressure. Maybe it happens at the upper weights, but small guys seem to be tough enough not to tap to position. Maybe I am delusional, but I find it hard to beleive that anyone on earth could submit me with mount pressure, for any length of time. I feel I would literally starve to death before I would die from mount pressure.

From mount:


From side control:


Black belt division both times. One Pan Ams, other one some IBJJF one. Probably Middleweight both times.

That's my instructor doing it. He's a little bit bigger than me, and I'm not really that big. I can tap guys with it too.

There's one of him making a guy pass out with pressure from side control too. Guy was literally unconscious on the mat because he didn't tap. I can't seem to find it right now though. Pan Ams I think.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Not to sound like an ass, but thats pretty pathetic. I guess bigger guys are much more likely to be pussies than smaller ones. Top guy tapped to a head squeeze. Not good. Just look at how much shit Ari got for tapping to side control.

 

[Balto]

Not to sound like an ass, but thats pretty pathetic. I guess bigger guys are much more likely to be pussies than smaller ones. Top guy tapped to a head squeeze. Not good. Just look at how much shit Ari got for tapping to side control.

Nah it's not a head squeeze man. It's driving the shoulder into the carotid on the neck. It's just the normal shoulder crossface grip, but it has so much pressure it becomes a choke. The guy will pass out if he does not tap. It can be done from half guard, side control, or mount -- anytime you are on top and can eliminate space to put pressure with your shoulder like that.

When I was talking about the drawbacks to the lockdown in the other thread, this is one of the main ones. This is why all the modern guys focus mainly on controlling the distance from the bottom. If you eliminate all space on the bottom, you get smashed with this.

When you move to SoCal, look up Gui. That should be an example of a small guy who can really put pressure. I haven't rolled with him, but everyone says he smashes from the top.

 

[EndlessCritic]

So, I very strictly remember that when someone is mounted on you or even on top in side control/hips switched, wrapping your arms around them and clasping hands behind their back is a very bad idea.

Well, you're wrong.

Hugging from the bottom of side control can be a very, very good idea. Ryron did a whole fucking video on it, and how it's arguably the better option than frantically working to create space.



Hugging from the bottom of mount can be the best of many bad options. Controlling space really is all that's inbetween your opponent's fist and your mouth.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Ryron says exactly what I said in my first post: Can you escape by hugging and bridging? No way, but it is fucking hard to submit someone who doesnt care about escaping, just controlling distance.

The same is with what Balto brought up in lockdown, which is basically the same thing: Can someone pass when you have lockdown? No, its hard as hell. You have to break that before you can pass which isnt easy.

 

[Balto]

Ryron says exactly what I said in my first post: Can you escape by hugging and bridging? No way, but it is fucking hard to submit someone who doesnt care about escaping, just controlling distance.

The same is with what Balto brought up in lockdown, which is basically the same thing: Can someone pass when you have lockdown? No, its hard as hell. You have to break that before you can pass which isnt easy.

If you take Ryron advice, you get Ryron results. Andre Galvao works you over for 20 minutes, and you get to tell people that you survived, which is a draw, which is really a win.

It's a losing strategy in most scenarios. That's why most guys gave this up like a decade ago. By virtue of being put in these positions in the first place, you are usually behind. If you just try to hold on, you let the top guy solidify the position even more, and he runs out the time on you.

 

[Dirty Holt]

If you take Ryron advice, you get Ryron results. Andre Galvao works you over for 20 minutes, and you get to tell people that you survived, which is a draw, which is really a win.

It's a losing strategy in most scenarios. That's why most guys gave this up like a decade ago. By virtue of being put in these positions in the first place, you are usually behind. If you just try to hold on, you let the top guy solidify the position even more, and he runs out the time on you.

TS wasnt asking on strategies to win from mount bottom, he was asking why it was so hard to submit someone who just hugs. Big difference. My opinion was opposite of most posters, that hugging is a good way to make submissions more difficult, in which Ryron agreed. Ryron also explicitly said hugging wont help you escape. It isnt so easy like everyone was making it out to be.

 

[Balto]

TS wasnt asking on strategies to win from mount bottom, he was asking why it was so hard to submit someone who just hugs. Big difference. My opinion was opposite of most posters, that hugging is a good way to make submissions more difficult, in which Ryron agreed. Ryron also explicitly said hugging wont help you escape. It isnt so easy like everyone was making it out to be.

It certainly slows things down, but I don't think it really makes it harder. The final outcome becomes more certain. It just takes patience to get there.

Using some numbers to illustrate, if I mount a non-hugger, I might think I have a 50% chance to submit him within 1 minute. Otherwise, he will probably make space and escape since that is what he will be trying to do the whole time. And if he does escape, then I'm not dominating anymore.

If he's a hugger, it might be a 10% chance within 1 minute, but I know he won't escape. If I keep the pressure on and wear him down for several more minutes, the chance that I'll submit him at the end is like 75%. And even if I don't, I am still dominating.

It's like the turtling strategy in the online RTS games. When the guy just builds a bunch of defensive walls instead of attack units, he prolongs his survival in the game. You can't just take him out right away. However, he also practically ensures his eventual loss. The opponent just needs to be patient, realize the game is going to take a little longer, and switch strategies to guarantee victory.

If a guy hugs me, I don't think "Oh man, he has good defense." I just smile and get ready to make the rest of the roll hell for him with pressure. It doesn't make the roll harder. It makes it much easier really. I just pressure and grind and take advantage of the fact that I can spam a simple submission like the ezekial repeatedly, and there is nothing he can really do to stop it as long as he keeps hugging. He might be able to fight it off for a while, but it just keeps coming back again and again and wearing him down.

If a guy is able to make enough space that I cannot ever really establish the mount to put pressure properly, that makes the roll harder for me. That I consider a good defense.

 

[junco]

Monoplata mount is the goods! they are giving it to you on a silver platter, arm bars, guillotines, omoplatas, gogoplatas, gi chokes, darce chokes, the monoplata, kimuras heaps of options from here

I like this option. My go-to for body huggers is what Marcelo Garcia calls the "spiral armbar." It works like a charm and is easily my highest percentage submission from mount. I actually try to bait guys into hugging my torso to set this up.

 

[Obscure Terror]

Here is Braulio tapping someone with shoulder pressure.

My wrestling coach does this where he gets his shoulder right in the neck, it will put you out sooner or later.

 

[EndlessCritic]

If you take Ryron advice, you get Ryron results. Andre Galvao works you over for 20 minutes, and you get to tell people that you survived, which is a draw, which is really a win.

It's a losing strategy in most scenarios. That's why most guys gave this up like a decade ago. By virtue of being put in these positions in the first place, you are usually behind. If you just try to hold on, you let the top guy solidify the position even more, and he runs out the time on you.

It's such a losing strategy, that it's the dominant strategy in mma right now.

Makes me want to fucking rip my eyes off when i hear joe rogan talk about how the guy on the bottom doesn't know what he's doing because he's not working to create space.

 

[Balto]

It's such a losing strategy, that it's the dominant strategy in mma right now.

Makes me want to fucking rip my eyes off when i hear joe rogan talk about how the guy on the bottom doesn't know what he's doing because he's not working to create space.

MMA is completely different. The strikes change things because when you create space from the bottom, the guy on top can strike with more power. Also in MMA, you can play the rules to stall for a stand up so you don't have to actually escape.

The question was about grappling, not MMA. It is a losing strategy there. No one will stand you up in a grappling match. You're stuck there the whole time.

 

[Gambledub]

I like this option. My go-to for body huggers is what Marcelo Garcia calls the "spiral armbar." It works like a charm and is easily my highest percentage submission from mount. I actually try to bait guys into hugging my torso to set this up.

Is this it?

[YT]-NHiylDfE3U[/YT]

Yeah I know what you mean, whenever I get to mount im begging someone to hug me, seeing as atm my other setups for the monoplata mount are terrible!

 

[LaBrian]

I have a fucked up neck and I'm claustrophobic as hell. Damn right I'm taping from heavy shoulder pressure to my neck/carotid every time. The key to my game is never letting them get there, always be moving and controlling the distance. Trying to hold people close and not let anything happen is a shitty way to play, leads to injury, and just sucks.

 

[junco]

Is this it?

[YT]-NHiylDfE3U[/YT]

Yeah I know what you mean, whenever I get to mount im begging someone to hug me, seeing as atm my other setups for the monoplata mount are terrible!

So in this video, I'm seeing a monoplata rather than an armbar. The spiral armbar setup begins exactly the same by pinching your opponent's arm between your thigh and ribs, but it ends differently.