Dead Religions

That is a brilliant book. Did you get the message? We have more Gods than ever. Shittier ones than ever.

"This is a bad land for gods," said Shadow. As an opening statement it wasn't Friends, Romans, countrymen, but it would do. "You've probably all learned that. The old gods are ignored. The new gods are as quickly taken up as they are abandoned, cast aside for the next big thing. Either you've been forgotten, or you're scared you're going to be rendered obsolete, or maybe you're just getting tired of existing on the whim of people."


Shadow shook his head. "You know," he said, "I think I would rather be a man than a god. We don
 
That is a brilliant book. Did you get the message? We have more Gods than ever. Shittier ones than ever.

"This is a bad land for gods," said Shadow. As an opening statement it wasn't Friends, Romans, countrymen, but it would do. "You've probably all learned that. The old gods are ignored. The new gods are as quickly taken up as they are abandoned, cast aside for the next big thing. Either you've been forgotten, or you're scared you're going to be rendered obsolete, or maybe you're just getting tired of existing on the whim of people."


Shadow shook his head. "You know," he said, "I think I would rather be a man than a god. We don
 
When reading Gaiman recently I started thinking how similar he is in some ways to Ray Bradbury, particularly use of metaphors. When I looked it up, it turns out he was a massive Bradbury fan.
 
I've always found a Gnostic approach to Christianity very interesting. Several sources (Gospal of Judas) stated Jesus was more of a Gnostic himself and the evidence was when the church decided what was and wasn't "canon".
 
I get the message! But actually it was Sandman that led me to make this thread.

"To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists"

Cheers to a fellow Gaiman reader

It reminds me of that Jung quote. Our Gods have not disappeared at all, they simply have gotten new names. They have power even if you don't believe in them.

America is the "spirit" of capitalism. We are the shadow of the world. We are the stone the builders rejected that became the keystone of the building. lol. We are the biggest scumbags. Rejects. A country that is founded on "freedom". Which is just another word for nothing left to lose. This country was built on people who had nothing left to lose, and we still act like it. Freedom ain't worth nothin, but it is free. Anybody can believe in it.

Jung said that we project our shadow off the Iron Curtain. That is what Europe sees in us. Their shadow. Their filth. We are their unconscious desires they don't want to admit to.
 
Yeah, I would say the old norse gods are making a come back. It is very interesting comparing the nine noble virtues vs 7 virtues.

At one time I was really researching it. I was like, "this is the religion of my people before kings started doling out religion." But ultimately while some things are cool such as valhalla and ragnarok and Wyrd and the norns---it became obvious that these were man made and things like Odin and bros ripping apart a cow and shit to make a universe was just nonsense and there was no reason to believe that any of the stories were divine or inspired by divinity.
I read a book on asatru and the guy was very anti-christian in it, but when you read it a lot of how he was telling you to behave was very similar to christian thought.

9 noble virtues of asatru

Courage
Truth
Honour
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Self Reliance
Industriousness
Perseverance

7 virtues of christianity

Faith is belief in the right things (including the virtues!).
Hope is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail.
Charity is concern for, and active helping of, others.
Fortitude is never giving up.
Justice is being fair and equitable with others.
Prudence is care of and moderation with money.
Temperance is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed.


I actually ordered a book on Asatru from Amazon a while back but the transaction didn't go through for whatever reason and I never did go back and try again. One day.

Since you bring up what obviously seem to be myths (like the creation story), it's interesting to see how Asatruars handle this and how they handle the existence of the deities. I know some don't believe in the literal existence of Thor, for instance, but some do.

And that's interesting about the virtues. There's a lot of overlap there, though I'd say the Christian virtues are a bit "softer" and less war-like.
 
Zoroastrianism is particularly interesting because of its similarities to Christianity. Considering they both originate from the same region of the world, you have to wonder how much influence there was there.

There are a bunch of theories about the Jews comming into contact with Zoroastranism during The Babylonian Exile.

What's so emphazised in Zoroastrianism is moral dualism. Good/Evil. God/Anti-God. Paradise/Hell, etc. There are theories that this rather dualistic point-of-view was intregrated into Judaism (and therefore, into Christianity/Islam).

In contrast, in the early parts of the Old Testament, God is all about rulling like a monarch . He lays down laws, hold court with his angels, and guides his loyal subjects. But there isn't really any heavy emphasis on "dualism". God in the early parts of the Old Testament has no "Anti-God" (ie: Devil) that is present and actively opposing him. Neither is the heaven/hell afterlife talked about much at all. It's theoriezed that these elements that emerge in the later parts of the OT/NT was due to the effect of Zoroastrian influences.


Any interest in this subject? Anyone have any insight or comments or articles they would like to link us too?

Mircea Eliade made an insightful comment on the nature of "dead pagan religions" and how they compare to Abrahamic religions (ie: Judaism, Christianity, Islam) on a systematic level.

What is the point of pagan religions? If you look at their myths, rituals and beliefs, it's fundementally about the perpetual rebirth of nature. Ancient people performed their rituals so to keep the cycle of nature going, to perserve the balance of the Universe (a lack of balance was indicated by drought, floods, etc). The cycle of seasons was heavily emphasized in their religion. (Think Persefone bringing winter and summer by climbing out of the Underworld. ) Pagan religions are, basically, nature religion. They performed rituals to keep natures status quo intact.

In contrast, Eliade called, say... Christianity, a "history religion". The point about Christianity is that after Jesus crucifixion , the rules changed. There where new rules about what an individual had to do with their life, ie: become Christian and live the Christian way.

Jesus did not die to "ensure that winter turned into summer and summer into winter". He died to create a new convant with men, which meant that new rules came into affect as he died. So, Christianity is a "history religion" defined by the historical moment that Jesus died. When the crucifixion happened, everything changed, and it was no longer about perserving the status quo of the Universe.

So... nature religions are defined by an emphasis to preserve the balance of the Universe, while Historical religions are defined by a specific historical event of momentous impact.

(This is, of course, a very abridged retelling of Eliade's argument. He provided much more details and examples in his works).
 
There are a bunch of theories about the Jews comming into contact with Zoroastranism during The Babylonian Exile.

What's so emphazised in Zoroastrianism is moral dualism. Good/Evil. God/Anti-God. Paradise/Hell, etc. There are theories that this rather dualistic point-of-view was intregrated into Judaism (and therefore, into Christianity/Islam).

In contrast, in the early parts of the Old Testament, God is all about rulling like a monarch . He lays down laws, hold court with his angels, and guides his loyal subjects. But there isn't really any heavy emphasis on "dualism". God in the early parts of the Old Testament has no "Anti-God" (ie: Devil) that is present and actively opposing him. Neither is the heaven/hell afterlife talked about much at all. It's theoriezed that these elements that emerge in the later parts of the OT/NT was due to the effect of Zoroastrian influences.




Mircea Eliade made an insightful comment on the nature of "dead pagan religions" and how they compare to Abrahamic religions (ie: Judaism, Christianity, Islam) on a systematic level.

What is the point of pagan religions? If you look at their myths, rituals and beliefs, it's fundementally about the perpetual rebirth of nature. Ancient people performed their rituals so to keep the cycle of nature going, to perserve the balance of the Universe (a lack of balance was indicated by drought, floods, etc). The cycle of seasons was heavily emphasized in their religion. (Think Persefone bringing winter and summer by climbing out of the Underworld. ) Pagan religions are, basically, nature religion. They performed rituals to keep natures status quo intact.

In contrast, Eliade called, say... Christianity, a "history religion". The point about Christianity is that after Jesus crucifixion , the rules changed. There where new rules about what an individual had to do with their life, ie: become Christian and live the Christian way.

Jesus did not die to "ensure that winter turned into summer and summer into winter". He died to create a new convant with men, which meant that new rules came into affect as he died. So, Christianity is a "history religion" defined by the historical moment that Jesus died. When the crucifixion happened, everything changed, and it was no longer about perserving the status quo of the Universe.

So... nature religions are defined by an emphasis to preserve the balance of the Universe, while Historical religions are defined by a specific historical event of momentous impact.

(This is, of course, a very abridged retelling of Eliade's argument. He provided much more details and examples in his works).

Dualism is essentially irrational. It reconciles opposites. The West is big on reason and logic in general. We consider reconciliation of opposites to be a contradiction.

What you are essentially describing, is a religion that is easily communicable. It is an extroverted religion as Jung defined it. Very literal and in your face. Little gray area. Eastern religions are more introverted, more personal. More abstract and subjective.
 
The Finns once believed the world was created from a duck egg.

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Thanks to Amorphis I been learning about Finnish folklore.
 
I often wonder how people felt during a religion's failing or transition to a different belief. Did a mass exodus happen? Did people trickle off one by one?

I read a study awhile back that demonstrated how poly- and mono- theistic religions were directly related to the society's food supply. Societies who developed farming and domestication also tended to develop monotheistic religions. Hunters/gatherers and nomadic people tended to follow polytheistic religions. The push to monotheism stemmed from the belief that pleasing a single god would bless their crops/livestock.
 
I often wonder how people felt during a religion's failing or transition to a different belief. Did a mass exodus happen? Did people trickle off one by one?

I read a study awhile back that demonstrated how poly- and mono- theistic religions were directly related to the society's food supply. Societies who developed farming and domestication also tended to develop monotheistic religions. Hunters/gatherers and nomadic people tended to follow polytheistic religions. The push to monotheism stemmed from the belief that pleasing a single god would bless their crops/livestock.

If that's the tendancy, then it contains some ginormous exceptions, since neither India nor China developed towards monotheism, despite being heavily agricultural areas and containing advanced civilizations.

Likewise, there are many examples of nomad tribes adapting monotheistic religons.
 
I actually ordered a book on Asatru from Amazon a while back but the transaction didn't go through for whatever reason and I never did go back and try again. One day.

Since you bring up what obviously seem to be myths (like the creation story), it's interesting to see how Asatruars handle this and how they handle the existence of the deities. I know some don't believe in the literal existence of Thor, for instance, but some do.

And that's interesting about the virtues. There's a lot of overlap there, though I'd say the Christian virtues are a bit "softer" and less war-like.

AFAIK, they believe in literal existence of thor and odin and valhalla and ragnarok and the giants and etc. They do not take them as some historical figures. Now, maybe critics will say this, but these dudes are doing blots and etc.

I read these books
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I think they believe these creation things and etc as being literally true. I have never heard Mimir or anything being a metaphor or etc.
 
I often wonder how people felt during a religion's failing or transition to a different belief. Did a mass exodus happen? Did people trickle off one by one?

I read a study awhile back that demonstrated how poly- and mono- theistic religions were directly related to the society's food supply. Societies who developed farming and domestication also tended to develop monotheistic religions. Hunters/gatherers and nomadic people tended to follow polytheistic religions. The push to monotheism stemmed from the belief that pleasing a single god would bless their crops/livestock.

I would disagree with that. Plenty of polytheists were farming and living right beside the Jews.
As far as europe goes, it was a push for one king, one God. Basically to consolidate power.

I would say that food supply is lunacy as they had a god for harvest and a god of the ocean and etc.
 
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