DC might have checkmated JBJ...

boss429 said:
Yeah and that hasn't really changed as far as I can tell. Aside from punching power I don't really see the HW offering JJ anything different or him having much trouble doing the same thing he did at LHW if he bulks up the right way. His skill set should translate quite well.
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yeah, but legacy-wise, has to top a win like the Miocic one, realistically...
 
The thing is, you can't really put the PED issue aside, no matter how good one thinks Jones is. The fact of the matter is he failed 2/3 fights under enhanced testing, and the one fight where he didn't pop was widely considered his worst performance in the Octagon, against not exactly the best opponent he ever fought (OSP).

Would have Jones been able to accomplish what he accomplished without PEDs? There is no question these help recovery, reaction time, energy levels, the capacity to train, and thus make a huge difference in performance, even if obviously not directly in skill (which is why the whole "PEDs don't teach you how to kick!" point is moot).

Would have Jones beaten Gustaffson clean? Or, Cormier the first time around? We just don't know, but we do know athletes gain significant performance gains from PEDs. Had he lost those fights, this wouldn't even be a discussion. There's no saying if he is as good as his past performances seemed to indicate, because he often, if not always, cheated.

I don't really see how anyone go beyond this argument other than saying "well, everyone he beat was cheating anyway!". That requires a lot of speculation beyond the cases we know (Vitor, Chael...), so it's not very good an argument.
 
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krelianx said:
The thing is, you can't really put the PED issue aside in this, no matter how good you think Jones is. The fact of the matter is he failed 2/3 fights under enhanced testing, and the one fight where he didn't pop was widely considered his worst performance in the Octagon, against not exactly the best opponent he ever fought (OSP).

Would have Jones been able to accomplish what he accomplished without PEDs? There is no question these help recovery, reaction, and make a huge difference in performance. Thus, people risking everything taking them. Would have Jones beaten Gustaffson clean? Cormier the first time around? We just don't know, but we do know athletes gain significant performance gains from PEDs. Had he lost those fights, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

So there's no saying if he is as good, because he often, if not always, cheated.

I don't really see how anyone go beyond this argument other than saying "well, everyone he beat was anyway!". That requires a lot of speculation, so it's not very good an argument.
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yeah, but would be another JBJ & PEDs thread... no point...
 
mmasask said:
DC's 0-2 vs bones he knows this and it burns his ass soo much he cried like a baby
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But Jones's career/legacy altering fuckups, which occur simultaneously with DC's success burns Jones. Otherwise he wouldn't still want to fight a guy he "beat*" twice. Someone who sees himself of the victor does not carry on with bizarre monologues fantasizing about beating a guy who he already beat and proved to be above in competition - two more times.

Shit, Overeem wqs a douche for calling Compromised Colon Brock out after beating him once (that and knocking a little girl down, and fucking up that reporter, and fucking up teammates. And eating horses).







*if we're talking about a streetfight, steroids don't matter as far as winning and losing, but in a competition that makes them against the rules, it's asterisk time.
 
Why isnt DC screaming for the 230 fight against bones ? He said he wanted a fight before the Brock fight............
 
Streeter said:
Why isnt DC screaming for the 230 fight against bones ? He said he wanted a fight before the Brock fight............
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even if JBJ gets his shit together, he´s gonna come back @ LHW, he said.
 
fighting isnt a sport its entertainment , DC lost twice and thats that. bones wants to fight him twice again cause he knows he will win... if peds were such an issue why is he taking the brock fight?
 
LouisBolanos said:
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omfg Louis i'm in tears HAHAHAHA
 
gono btw said:
Even if you consider that JBJ is ahead of him in the LHW GOAT List (let´s put aside the PEDs debate), DC´s 1st run in the SF HW division, coupled with his recent Dare-2-Be-Great move to challenge the UFC [potential ATG] HW champion (Miocic), might have cemented DC´s legacy in the P4P GOAT list, ahead of JBJ...

See: JBJ´s lost time and reluctance to test himself @ HW , might work against his timeline when it comes to cementing his legacy vs DC.

Even if JBJ gets his shit together, and somehow comes back, the window @ HW is closing:
the only [in his relative physical prime] Great win would be against an aging Miocic, but legacy-wise beating him @ 36 yrs old is different than beating him @ 38-39 yrs old..

And if you consider that the UFC is indeed a poor organization when it comes to developping HWs (only 2 potential ATGs in the last 10 yrs: Stipe & Cain to a lesser extent)...

DC´s anticipation & bold move might have checkmated JBJ...
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IMO you can't "put aside the PEDS" once you are outed as a steroid cheat all your accomplishments are tainted and of no consequence as far as "legacy" goes. Even if you say he is already super gifted physically and his skill set is through the roof. The mental edge you gain by roiding is never really mentioned, but mental state is just as important as anything in fighting and having ferocious confidence knowing your roided to the gills absolutely plays a giant part and gives a fighter a significant advantage. Just my 2 cents.
 
Paratr00per said:
IMO you can't "put aside the PEDS" once you are outed as a steroid cheat all your accomplishments are tainted and of no consequence as far as "legacy" goes. Even if you say he is already super gifted physically and his skill set is through the roof. The mental edge you gain by roiding is never really mentioned, but mental state is just as important as anything in fighting and having ferocious confidence knowing your roided to the gills absolutely plays a giant part and gives a fighter a significant advantage. Just my 2 cents.
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if we dont do it, gonna be another JBJ & PEDs thread... letz have a different look...

Meanwhile, PEDs have always been so rampant in MMA...
 
gono btw said:
Even if you consider that JBJ is ahead of him in the LHW GOAT List (let´s put aside the PEDs debate), DC´s 1st run in the SF HW division, coupled with his recent Dare-2-Be-Great move to challenge the UFC [potential ATG] HW champion (Miocic), might have cemented DC´s legacy in the P4P GOAT list, ahead of JBJ...

See: JBJ´s lost time and reluctance to test himself @ HW , might work against his timeline when it comes to cementing his legacy vs DC.

Even if JBJ gets his shit together, and somehow comes back, the window @ HW is closing:
the only [in his relative physical prime] Great win would be against an aging Miocic, but legacy-wise beating him @ 36 yrs old is different than beating him @ 38-39 yrs old..

And if you consider that the UFC is indeed a poor organization when it comes to developping HWs (only 2 potential ATGs in the last 10 yrs: Stipe & Cain to a lesser extent)...

DC´s anticipation & bold move might have checkmated JBJ...
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Do you think the top LHWs and HWs would rather beat DC or Jones? Obviously they would rather all beat Jones. Do you know why? Because they think Jones is the better fighter. DC has the "good guy" victory over Jones. But most fans (start a poll) and fighters think Jones is better. Hell, DC pretty clearly thinks Jones is better
 
If not for Jones, DC wouldn't have many fans either. There are almost no real DC fans. They are just Jones haters. Thats why anytime they bring ud DC, they bring up Jones
 
if DC remains undefeated at HW and then Jones loses to Gustafson, DC will definitely be ahead.
 
gono btw said:
might be retired by then, and JBJ said he wanting to come back @ LHW
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Yeah thats true. If they offered it as his comeback fight I doubt he says no though.
 
613 said:
Do you think the top LHWs and HWs would rather beat DC or Jones? Obviously they would rather all beat Jones. Do you know why? Because they think Jones is the better fighter. DC has the "good guy" victory over Jones. But most fans (start a poll) and fighters think Jones is better. Hell, DC pretty clearly thinks Jones is better
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this thread is not about H2H confrontation or assessment, it´s about legacy and overall career.
 
613 said:
If not for Jones, DC wouldn't have many fans either. There are almost no real DC fans. They are just Jones haters. Thats why anytime they bring ud DC, they bring up Jones
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Im no DC fans expert, but it´s partly true when you consider that DC realistically needs these rivals to build a PPV, it seems...
 
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