d'arce choke allowed in bjj?

[Drew Foster]

Just because something cranks the neck doesn't make it a neck crank. That's my understanding of it, but I'm merely a white belt, so yeah.

That is absolutely correct!

A perfect example with the Darce is the elbow lift version. By lifting your elbow, it twists their head. It also twists their neck into your forearm, so the choke comes on faster, but there is definitely pressure in the neck. But like you said, that does not make it a neck crank.

Paulo Thiago did this to Mike Swick, and put him to sleep almost instantly.

 

[outonbail]

That's the 2nd way I talked about finishing the arm triangle in my last post. I have never heard of it being illegal, although it can cause more strain on the neck than the other 2 common finishes, because with the palm of your hand on their forehead, you can push down and tilt their head back at the neck.

It's still a considered a choke though.

I got DQ'ed for it in an European competition under IBJJF rules

but thanks for all the responses!

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Yes, it is allowed, both in gi and no-gi. All head-and-arm chokes can tweak the neck a little bit. But whenever someone tells me an Anaconda, Darce, etc, is cranking the neck, I always ask them to remember what REAL neck cranking techniques feel like. IMVHO many people have a tendency to think that pressure on the neck = neck crank. A neck crank is very unique, and is its own thing.

Excellent point, and often neglected. If something hurts your neck, that doesn't mean it's a neck crank. A proper neck/spine crank (crucifix, twister, bas rutten neck crank, etc.) causes incredible pain and has the potential to cause serious spinal damage if you don't have the sense to tap. A d'arce that hurts the neck won't cause that kind of damage.

And I have been put to sleep by a d'arce, so I can tell you it's certainly a choke.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I got DQ'ed for it in an European competition under IBJJF rules

but thanks for all the responses!

That's weird. Do you have a video?

 

[Drew Foster]

Excellent point, and often neglected. If something hurts your neck, that doesn't mean it's a neck crank. A proper neck/spine crank (crucifix, twister, bas rutten neck crank, etc.) causes incredible pain and has the potential to cause serious spinal damage if you don't have the sense to tap. A d'arce that hurts the neck won't cause that kind of damage.

And I have been put to sleep by a d'arce, so I can tell you it's certainly a choke.

That's crazy, you mentioned the exact 3 neck cranks I was gonna mention. Granted, I don't know more than a few, but still....

Yeah way too many people complain about neck cranks when there's not a true crank there. Anytime you have your arms around someone's neck and you're squeezing, there might be a little pressure on their neck. My understanding of a neck crank is that it purposely moves the head in such a way as to move the neck in a direction it isn't supposed to move.

I was gonna reply to what OUTONBAIL said about grabbing your lapel with the other hand, but I did not understand what he meant by that.

 

[Drew Foster]

I got DQ'ed for it in an European competition under IBJJF rules

but thanks for all the responses!

WHAT? That's crazy. I definitely believe you, but were you gripping a certain way that was unusual?

Do you have a video?

I've seen people Darce'd in gi tournaments (more rare than no-gi obviously) and never saw a ref blink an eye.

That's very strange you were disqualified.

The ref could honestly have had it out for you, or just didn't like you.

I would email the IBJJF and ask them the same question. I'm pretty sure they will give the same answer, in fact, they'd have to. I can't count the number of Darce chokes I've seen at IBJJF tournaments. And it's not even an issue of gi vs. no-gi. IBJJF keeps the same rules for both. That's why you can't heelhook at the no-gi Worlds, even at black belt.

 

[outonbail]

That's crazy, you mentioned the exact 3 neck cranks I was gonna mention. Granted, I don't know more than a few, but still....

Yeah way too many people complain about neck cranks when there's not a true crank there. Anytime you have your arms around someone's neck and you're squeezing, there might be a little pressure on their neck. My understanding of a neck crank is that it purposely moves the head in such a way as to move the neck in a direction it isn't supposed to move.

I was gonna reply to what OUTONBAIL said about grabbing your lapel with the other hand, but I did not understand what he meant by that.

i'll try to film what i mean when i'm in brasil next week O_O

and @ the video, nope, don't have it unfortunately

 

[Drew Foster]

i'll try to film what i mean when i'm in brasil next week O_O

and @ the video, nope, don't have it unfortunately

I edited my last post. Take a look.

Also, do you mean if your right arm is doing the choke, instead of placing your left hand on their back, you grab your own collar/lapel? That's all I can think of.

 

[outonbail]

I edited my last post. Take a look.

Also, do you mean if your right arm is doing the choke, instead of placing your left hand on their back, you grab your own collar/lapel? That's all I can think of.

well, my right arm is doing the choke, and my right hand holds my left lapel, it works perfectly and puts 0% pressure on the opponents neck. left hand is just ready to use for control if something happens.

that's a great idea to email the IBJJF. you don't see many d'arces in BJJ, but i started using it a few weeks ago and it works great in my passing game and hit it regulary on better players then me. it would be a shame to use it in the europeans and then get DQ'ed -_-' lol

 

[Drew Foster]

well, my right arm is doing the choke, and my right hand holds my left lapel, it works perfectly and puts 0% pressure on the opponents neck. left hand is just ready to use for control if something happens.

that's a great idea to email the IBJJF. you don't see many d'arces in BJJ, but i started using it a few weeks ago and it works great in my passing game and hit it regulary on better players then me. it would be a shame to use it in the europeans and then get DQ'ed -_-' lol

Interesting. Maybe the ref saw your variation as something illegal?

Try it next time with the typical RNC grip.

If you mean you don't see many in gi BJJ, I agree. They're there, but unless it's someone who uses the Darce as a main part of their game, the clothing gets in the way and the friction makes it harder to shoot the arm through.

It is, however, extremely common in no-gi JiuJitsu. You see it all the time in no-gi tournaments at white-black belt levels. It's one of the more common chokes.

But yes, email the IBJJF. I would even say ask them on Twitter, but I doubt they check that often.

I feel very confident in saying that you getting DQ'd was a 1 in 1,000 chance.

 

[Sloth]

That's crazy, you mentioned the exact 3 neck cranks I was gonna mention. Granted, I don't know more than a few, but still....

Yeah way too many people complain about neck cranks when there's not a true crank there. Anytime you have your arms around someone's neck and you're squeezing, there might be a little pressure on their neck. My understanding of a neck crank is that it purposely moves the head in such a way as to move the neck in a direction it isn't supposed to move.

I was gonna reply to what OUTONBAIL said about grabbing your lapel with the other hand, but I did not understand what he meant by that.

Agreed, sometimes people think they are being put into an intentional neck crank, but it just causes unusual discomfort on their neck because they may have tight shoulders or tight/damaged muscles or ligaments in their neck.

 

[vicodin]

sorry, my english isn't perfect

searched an example for you

YouTube - Vitor Belfort Arm Triangle Choke from Top Mount

the way vitor finishes the arm triangle here, is illegal in BJJ since it also cranks the neck.

This is not illegal in BJJ, and will not crank the neck if you do it correctly...

 

[Mikey Triangles]

op is misinformed. all chokes are legal even if they can be used to crank the neck. it is specifically stated on the ibjjf website that neckcranks are allowed as long as it's from a chokehold; only pure cervical locks(like the can-opener or twister) are illegal for adults:

"

 

[Mikey Triangles]

also if your darce is more of a crank, then you're doing it incorrectly... and if you learned it as a crank then I'd have to say you're instructor lacks a fundamental understanding of the technique's mechanics.

I've put a couple competitors to sleep with the Darce myself, and in fact the last time I taught it as a guest instructor at another academy one of the students went to sleep while another practiced on him because it came on quicker than any choke he'd ever felt previously. the darce is most certainly a strangulation, and not a crank at all if it's done correctly.

 

[Drew Foster]

also if your darce is more of a crank, then you're doing it incorrectly... and if you learned it as a crank then I'd have to say you're instructor lacks a fundamental understanding of the technique's mechanics.

I've put a couple competitors to sleep with the Darce myself, and in fact the last time I taught it as a guest instructor at another academy one of the students went to sleep while another practiced on him because it came on quicker than any choke he'd ever felt previously. the darce is most certainly a strangulation, and not a crank at all if it's done correctly.

As usual Mikey sweeps in and ends thing neat and clean.