Daniel Cormier Potential PED Maskers (.4/1 T/E) Discussion Thread

[Boom_Ba_Ye]

This is a good post. I saw another source that said normal was 30-60 ng/mL. I think I've been mislead, perhaps unfairly criticizing Jones. If this is correct I retract my previous statements.

My argument has changed over the last two days the more I have researched on this.

Jones' testosterone levels are ridiculously low. He posted 0.59, 1.8 and 4.9 ng/mL. You might as well discount the first test. due to it being watery. Despite what everyone was originally saying (myself included), his epitestosterone levels weren't high and were slightly below average.

His testosterone levels are very shady. As I have been saying, he has lower levels than Vitor and Sonnen post TRT and Overeem post drug bust.

 

[Boom_Ba_Ye]

you are incorrect. The concentration numbers are the same for saliva, blood or urine

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21175364

edit: oops realized here you probably can't read the full article unless you are at a university that has a subscription. I'll see if I can find a different source. YOu can read the abstract within the paper the concentrations are the same as blood and saliva.

Normal levels in a urine sample are around 30ng/mL-60 ng/mL. If converted to ng/dL, that gives 3000-6000 ng/dL and we know that the range for a blood test as you said is 300-1200 ng/dL.

In fact, if you look at the study below, in a study carried out by J. William McRoberts, Arthur D. Olson, and Walter L. Herrmann titled Determination of Urinary Testosterone and Epitestosterone in Men, Women, and Children" which can be found below, they found the following:

"Average testosterone and epitestosterone excretion in 11 normal male subjects was
61.3 m.g./24 hr. (range 9.7-109.7) and 45.8 g./24 hr. (range 3.7-111.0), respectively; in 10 normal female subjects, 8.8 g./24 hr. (range 2.1-13.8) and 10.7 J.g./24 hr. (range 0.8-18.9), respectively; and in 7 normal children under 11 years of
age, 1.7 g./24 hr. (range 0.3-3.9) and 1.4 .g./24 hr. (range 0.4-3.2), respectively.
www.clinchem.org/content/14/6/565.full.pdf

Either way, that is far far away from 300-1200 ng/dl which you are claiming and which is the range for a blood test.

 

[waiguoren]

Normal levels in a urine sample are around 30ng/mL-60 ng/mL. If converted to ng/dL, that gives 3000-6000 ng/dL and we know that the range for a blood test as you said is 300-1200 ng/dL.

In fact, if you look at the study below, in a study carried out by J. William McRoberts, Arthur D. Olson, and Walter L. Herrmann titled Determination of Urinary Testosterone and Epitestosterone in Men, Women, and Children" which can be found below, they found the following:

"Average testosterone and epitestosterone excretion in 11 normal male subjects was
61.3 m.g./24 hr. (range 9.7-109.7) and 45.8 g./24 hr. (range 3.7-111.0), respectively; in 10 normal female subjects, 8.8 g./24 hr. (range 2.1-13.8) and 10.7 J.g./24 hr. (range 0.8-18.9), respectively; and in 7 normal children under 11 years of
age, 1.7 g./24 hr. (range 0.3-3.9) and 1.4 .g./24 hr. (range 0.4-3.2), respectively.
www.clinchem.org/content/14/6/565.full.pdf

Either way, that is far far away from 300-1200 ng/dl which you are claiming and which is the range for a blood test.

Thanks for correcting that guy on his horrible math, but what is the point of citing the McRoberts study? It's not like we have any data that could tell us how much total T Jones secreted over a 24-hour period.

 

[Blackened]

Normal levels in a urine sample are around 30ng/mL-60 ng/mL. If converted to ng/dL, that gives 3000-6000 ng/dL and we know that the range for a blood test as you said is 300-1200 ng/dL.

In fact, if you look at the study below, in a study carried out by J. William McRoberts, Arthur D. Olson, and Walter L. Herrmann titled Determination of Urinary Testosterone and Epitestosterone in Men, Women, and Children" which can be found below, they found the following:

"Average testosterone and epitestosterone excretion in 11 normal male subjects was
61.3 m.g./24 hr. (range 9.7-109.7) and 45.8 g./24 hr. (range 3.7-111.0), respectively; in 10 normal female subjects, 8.8 g./24 hr. (range 2.1-13.8) and 10.7 J.g./24 hr. (range 0.8-18.9), respectively; and in 7 normal children under 11 years of
age, 1.7 g./24 hr. (range 0.3-3.9) and 1.4 .g./24 hr. (range 0.4-3.2), respectively.
www.clinchem.org/content/14/6/565.full.pdf

Either way, that is far far away from 300-1200 ng/dl which you are claiming and which is the range for a blood test.

I'm not trying to be rude man, your posts are really good and thought out. I don't think your conversion is right.

Enter those numbers here... https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=70+ml+to+dl

To clarify, there are 100 mL's in a dL, not the other way around.

 

[waiguoren]

I'm not trying to be rude man, your posts are really good and thought out. I don't think your conversion is right.

Enter those numbers here... https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=70+ml+to+dl

To clarify, there are 100 mL's in a dL, not the other way around.

The guy's numbers are right, check your math.

 

[Boom_Ba_Ye]

Thanks for correcting that guy on his horrible math, but what is the point of citing the McRoberts study? It's not like we have any data that could tell us how much total T Jones secreted over a 24-hour period.

I don't know, but it seems that these are the averages for a person that a urine test should be held to. This is the figure that Conte mentioned in his tweet as the average for epitestoterone level in a urine sample. He mentioned 45.8 ng/ml which is exactly the figure mentioned in this study. Conte compared Jones epitestorone level of 27 ng/ml to the average mentioned in this study.

Either way, the average testosterone for a urine sample is NOT 300-1200 ng/dl as was wrongly stated.

 

[Boom_Ba_Ye]

I'm not trying to be rude man, your posts are really good and thought out. I don't think your conversion is right.

Enter those numbers here... https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=70+ml+to+dl

To clarify, there are 100 mL's in a dL, not the other way around.

You can check out my conversions on this calculator.

http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/ng_dlng_ml.php

 

[waiguoren]

This is the figure that Conte mentioned in his tweet as the average for epitestoterone level in a urine sample. He mentioned 45.8 ng/ml which is exactly the figure mentioned in this study. Conte compared Jones epitestorone level of 27 ng/ml to the average mentioned in this study.

It just doesn't make sense. The number mentioned in the paper is 45.8 micrograms per 24 hour period, not 45.8 ng/ml.

 

[Amygdala]

So Victor is Yahoo's source as well? What's weird to me is when Victor talks about Jones he provides a link to the document that has the numbers. With dc he doesn't provide anything.

I think that's because someone made a FOI request for Jones' info. Don't know if anyone has done that for DC's. They should.

 

[Blackened]

You can check out my conversions on this calculator.

http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/ng_dlng_ml.php

That's a nice tool!

I see my mistake too, I wasn't taking into account the fact it was divided, I was just moving the decimal places (duh) .000000009/.001 :redface:

 

[Boom_Ba_Ye]

That's a nice tool!

I see my mistake too, I wasn't taking into account the fact it was divided, I was just moving the decimal places (duh) .000000009/.001 :redface:

I made the same mistake myself two days ago.

 

[Blackened]

I made the same mistake myself two days ago.

I think calculators have ruined us, LOL!

 

[Amygdala]

That's one of the problems is no one knows where DCs numbers came from. Yahoo says Victor Conte, Victor didn't provide any source for his numbers which he did with Jones.

Another article quoting the same numbers: http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/1/8...on-head-jon-jones-testosterone-clean-prior-to

Can't seem to find the original source though.

 

[Squarechoke]

I'm just going to keep quoting Victor Conte, a man who knows how to beat tests:

Victor Conte @VictorConte

 

[Blackened]

Can someone email him and ask for a source? That' would put this whole thing to rest.

 

[Boom_Ba_Ye]

It just doesn't make sense. The number mentioned in the paper is 45.8 micrograms per 24 hour period, not 45.8 ng/ml.

You seem to be right. Back to square one.

 

[Blackened]

You seem to be right. Back to square one.

It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. It's testosterone (in micrograms) excreted per 24 period. Do they really do this though? Every drop of urine in a 24 hour period is measured? That doesn't sound right?

Read this http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/40/2/255

 

[waiguoren]

You seem to be right. Back to square one.

I think it's not useful to focus on the urinary concentrations of T or E because of the massive variation that occurs due to e.g., drinking water.

We are therefore left with seemingly low T/E figures.

But we still don't know if his T/E figures were low, since we don't have his old test results, we don't have his post-fight results, and we don't have inter-individual statistical data for T/E. Population data are described in the following papers, at least two of which are written in German, which I can't read, and none of which I can access online:

M. Donike, K.-R. B

 

[best eva]

Later