Cross Training (Strikers Input Needed)

[The Man Monster]

All this talk over BJJ vs. Wrestling vs. Judo vs. Sambo and so on has posed an interesting question for me.
I've read that Thai fighters have a hard time learning Grappling because they're not used to fighting from the ground, furthermore
Grapplers aren't used to getting hit.

My question is this:
You have a chance to train in any art to obtain the perfect mix of MMA skills starting at a young age (like the Gracie's learning
BJJ at 6-7) in what order do you train what arts?

Is it better to go from Boxing to BJJ or Wrestling to BJJ or what?

Remember this thread isn't like all those other "My Style is Better Than Yours" type of threads, because we should all be able
to acknowledge that Judo has some skill sets that Wrestling doesn't, just like muay Thai has skill sets Boxing doesn't.
This thread is not only what is the optimal mix of styles, but also in what order to train them to make the transition into the next
style easier with an MMA mindset.

P.S.
I also posted this in the Grappling Section, I apologize to the mods if this isn't permitted but I wanted to get as much input on
this as possible and not everyone checks both forums.
Plus Strikers and Grapplers both have different opinions, so I figured two threads were okay for this matter.

 

[krellik]

Sometimes you play with the thought of "what if I did that and that at that age so I could become the next pride champion.... Silly but it kills time...

....Anyhow my conclusion is if I would have started wrestling at the age of six (where the good wrestlers start to train) and would have also started to box from the age of thirteen you would have a solid base for every future art to include in your mma training.


In the end all you need is exposure in everything, all that you want to be good at you need to spend enough quality training at, there is no shortcut...

...And personally I do see the advantage at training different aspects of mma with the different experts such as good wrestlers, thai boxers, boxers and bjj dudes.... But I am loyal to the thougth that if mma is what you want to compete in from the begining you should start to train in an integrated mma system as early as possible.

 

[_All-State_]

I do not believe in training in an integrated MMA system early on unless you happen to receive individual attention from a top ten school with hours of time to train daily. It's really a mixed bag whether to start striking or grappling. Grappling is safer on children and kids seem to be natural grapplers. It takes a lot more time to be proficient with striking however and many children need months of solid technique training and drilling before they can spar effectively.

Hell, I believe any MA is good. Many guys with TKD backgrounds have a lot of athleticism and they pick up MMA faster than guys just off the street. Same with many guys with non-MA backgrounds, such as in gymnastics or dance. My personal opinion is that kids at a very young age (3-10) should focus more on developing physical abilities than sparring. Just my personal opinion. There are lots of boxers and MT guys who started at a very young age. More power to them. But I just don't think kids that age are ready to get in the ring for a bout. Kids can go all-out grappling without hurting themselves when they're closely supervised. With striking however, there are simply just more variables to control.

Those of you who've trained at a boxing gym know what I'm talking about. When six-year olds spar, it nowhere resembles a boxing match. There's no regard to strategy, they're usually either very timid or very aggressive. Although young kids are not physically capable of seriously injuring each other with 16 oz. gloves as they barely move with them, that's the problem. The only punch combinations they throw are 1-2 blasts followed by a retreat. When young kids grapple on the other hand, it's a lot more technical. Plus, kids seem to enjoy grappling more or at least that's my impression. As a kid growing up, I'd roll around with my brothers and sisters for fun. I never punch, kick, elbow, and knee them for entertainment (more like out of anger).

I have been training in striking arts since childhood but I seem to pick up grappling quicker. I dunno, maybe it's because I'm older and more capable than when I was a kid. I wrestled only two years in HS and one season of greco/freestyle and I still qualified for the state championships and nationals in LV. My personal experience is that wrestlers without formal training in striking have absolutely atrocious striking form. Matt Hughes is an excellent wrestler but an average stand-up striker. Dan Henderson has a KO punch and pretty good hand speed, but I wouldn't say he's a technician.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably train in wrestling during the winter and spring, and judo & BJJ during the autumn and summer. I'd also get into TKD, Shotokan, whatever. I wouldn't start boxing and muay thai until I was at least 11 or 12 years old. Again, many kids with a TKD background may have very little fighting experience and ability. From my experience, most of the world's best MMA fighters have a base in something. For Fedor, it's judo/Sambo. Noguiera = BJJ. Hughes = Wrestling. GSP = Kyokushin. Someone like Rich Franklin is a rarity. It holds true for the MMA gyms I've trained at. Most of the better fighters have a strong base in one or more aspects of the fight game. They seem to progress much faster than guys who've been just training MMA. There are college wrestlers, thaiboxers, and BJJ blue belts who have gone more in six months than the "strictly-MMA" guys who've been training for years.

But again, nothing is cut-'n-dry. Too many variables such in individual ability and aptitude, quality of instruction, and financial restrictions that prevent us from receiving hours of private training from a Gracie.

 

[riacef1]

I think in the perfect world I would start a kid in boxing and wrestling at 5 yo, but no sparing someone else said that about young kids using to strategy in boxing and I completely agree, but I would try to get the kid moving as fluidly as possible and understanding the basic concepts of boxing such as angles and head movement. I would really focus on takedowns and Takedown defense. Start him in sparring against adults at 6 and against other people at 10. At 14 I would add muay thai and BJJ. Thats it.

 

[aaron_mag]

I do not believe in training in an integrated MMA system early on unless you happen to receive individual attention from a top ten school with hours of time to train daily. It's really a mixed bag whether to start striking or grappling. Grappling is safer on children and kids seem to be natural grapplers. It takes a lot more time to be proficient with striking however and many children need months of solid technique training and drilling before they can spar effectively.

Hell, I believe any MA is good. Many guys with TKD backgrounds have a lot of athleticism and they pick up MMA faster than guys just off the street. Same with many guys with non-MA backgrounds, such as in gymnastics or dance. My personal opinion is that kids at a very young age (3-10) should focus more on developing physical abilities than sparring. Just my personal opinion. There are lots of boxers and MT guys who started at a very young age. More power to them. But I just don't think kids that age are ready to get in the ring for a bout. Kids can go all-out grappling without hurting themselves when they're closely supervised. With striking however, there are simply just more variables to control.

Those of you who've trained at a boxing gym know what I'm talking about. When six-year olds spar, it nowhere resembles a boxing match. There's no regard to strategy, they're usually either very timid or very aggressive. Although young kids are not physically capable of seriously injuring each other with 16 oz. gloves as they barely move with them, that's the problem. The only punch combinations they throw are 1-2 blasts followed by a retreat. When young kids grapple on the other hand, it's a lot more technical. Plus, kids seem to enjoy grappling more or at least that's my impression. As a kid growing up, I'd roll around with my brothers and sisters for fun. I never punch, kick, elbow, and knee them for entertainment (more like out of anger).

I have been training in striking arts since childhood but I seem to pick up grappling quicker. I dunno, maybe it's because I'm older and more capable than when I was a kid. I wrestled only two years in HS and one season of greco/freestyle and I still qualified for the state championships and nationals in LV. My personal experience is that wrestlers without formal training in striking have absolutely atrocious striking form. Matt Hughes is an excellent wrestler but an average stand-up striker. Dan Henderson has a KO punch and pretty good hand speed, but I wouldn't say he's a technician.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably train in wrestling during the winter and spring, and judo & BJJ during the autumn and summer. I'd also get into TKD, Shotokan, whatever. I wouldn't start boxing and muay thai until I was at least 11 or 12 years old. Again, many kids with a TKD background may have very little fighting experience and ability. From my experience, most of the world's best MMA fighters have a base in something. For Fedor, it's judo/Sambo. Noguiera = BJJ. Hughes = Wrestling. GSP = Kyokushin. Someone like Rich Franklin is a rarity. It holds true for the MMA gyms I've trained at. Most of the better fighters have a strong base in one or more aspects of the fight game. They seem to progress much faster than guys who've been just training MMA. There are college wrestlers, thaiboxers, and BJJ blue belts who have gone more in six months than the "strictly-MMA" guys who've been training for years.

But again, nothing is cut-'n-dry. Too many variables such in individual ability and aptitude, quality of instruction, and financial restrictions that prevent us from receiving hours of private training from a Gracie.

Great, great post. It is so true that most kids don't get the stategy part in sparring. I've judged in many tournaments and when you have two young kids it is basically two spinning whirlwinds throwing all sorts of kicks and punches about five feet away from each other. Occasionally they will spin close enough to accidently score a point or two. There are some rare exceptions, but these kids usually grow bored with it by the time they could be REALLY good anyway.

And I think there is some truth to that in grappling as well. My father-in-law was a wrestling coach in high school and also coached kids wrestling. He has watched a tournament or two and laughs and says, "It is exactly like kids wrestling!! Two kids flop around the mat for awhile until one of them accidently pins the other one."

Here is my plan for my daughter's training (she is only 9 months old now): She'll do whatever gives her energy and keeps her ACTIVE. I want her to be healthy and fit. Whatever we find that she loves to do is fine with me. It can be ballet, gymnastics, yoga, tap dancing, polka dancing. Whatever!

When I was a kid I loved going to TKD practice (ITF style). Loved it. I loved spinning kicks, jumping kicks, kicking the heavy bag, sparring, etc, etc, etc. My parents used to ground me from it as punishment (unlike other kids that were forced to be there). In other words it gave me energy and I enjoyed it. I played football and lacrosse in high school and college. My parents didn't force me into either one. I chose them because I wanted to do them. I used to have teammates who were forced into football because their 'father was a great football star'. They were fricking miserable.

I enjoy grappling (Sambo) now too. I am only sorry it took me so long in life to discover I liked it.

For me these things are not about self-defense, becoming a bad ass, or impressing other people. The reward is in the joy of DOING it. The actual training itself.

And that is what I'd like my daughter to find. Something she likes doing just for doing it. So many people want to force their kid to live their dreams. That will just burn the kid out. If they have an aptitude and a love for it that is one thing...but otherwise you just burn the kid out. I say let them be kids. They grow up soon enough as it is and then it is all work, work, work....

 

[The Man Monster]

Some really good replys so far, All State put alot of thought into his post... Good shit.

 

[krellik]

I do not believe in training in an integrated MMA system early on unless you happen to receive individual attention from a top ten school with hours of time to train daily.

Well everything comes down to what your focus is, what do you want to compete in.
If your drive and passion is mma then you should definitively start to train it imediately....

I cant really see how anybody can argue against it. It shouldnt mean that you are "sloopier" than anybody else, it should mean that you focus on a more selective selection of tools that you train to perfection, you cant have the whole arsenal of boxing, thai, bjj, wrestling, you have to have a "kit" of tools that flows together with eachother. Its a -huuge- waste of time spending time drilling things that dont work in mma...
If your main drive is boxing you shouldnt spend to much time kickboxing, surely you will get many things from the kickboxing that will help your boxing, but in the end your really diluting your training.

..On the other hand its not many people that right from the start actually wants to compete in full out mma since its still a more extreme sport when it all comes down to it than most others (if nothing else for all the unknow factors...)

...And it is always a huge benefit to get quality sparring with people that are kings of there domain, thats another reason to start in an integrated system and then search out further instruction in other areas when you see where your lacking or which parts you want to specialise in, this way you will also have an idea of which tools are aplicable for your -primary- sport -mma-...

It will be whery hard to convince me of training in any other way than this from the day you decided you want to compete in mma, just as if I wanted to compete in boxing I would train in a whery specific way, same with muay thai, bjj, wrestling, whatever..

 

[aaron_mag]

It will be whery hard to convince me of training in any other way than this from the day you decided you want to compete in mma, just as if I wanted to compete in boxing I would train in a whery specific way, same with muay thai, bjj, wrestling, whatever..

Note what All-State said was:

I do not believe in training in an integrated MMA system early on unless you happen to receive individual attention from a top ten school with hours of time to train daily.

The bolded parts are the important ones. If you've got hours of time to train it certainly is possible. But what happens when people try to diversify the class too much is that they spread themselves too thin and never get any good at anything.

By the time someone has decided they want to compete in MMA I think they meet the 'hours of time to train' stipulation. They better anyway!

 

[krellik]

Yeah I read that, and I think its silly. That more or less means elite level training right from the get go and that isnt realistic in most casses.

If you train 4 hours a week or 12 it doesnt really change the effective way of training. Just like if you where training boxing 4 hours a week or 12 hours a week the things you train wouldnt really change either... The only thing that changes is that there would be a lot of more training, higher skill level and harder sparring.

If you want to train in mma from the get go you should preferably train from day 1
-Seting up takedowns with punches.
-Strike without being taken down.
-Grapple with an emphasis that you will be punched in the future. (that doesnt mean that you grapple with punches from day 1 however...)

These things all makes the sport of mma unique. If its the sport you want to compete in, preferably train it from day one.