Cross Choke From Mount

[Simonsimon]

delete this post

 

[Fedorzilla]

You need to read this thread. I read the whole thing a few months ago and tried to apply everything. Result: my go-to choke from mount. It's VERY high percentage.

Note that you will get people who think they can tuck their chin in with this one, and end up tapping because if they don't, you'll break their jaw. It's a good learning experience for them.

It's a good thread, but it's long and I actually consolidated what I could (that was of worth) into the following:

Here is a video from Nicolas Gregoriades, first black belt given by Roger Gracie.
Basic but always cool to watch :

Basic choke principles with gi

Well, I've been in a class where Roger has taught the cross choke from mount, so, uh, I'll give it as I got it from the man:

Getting the hand in - Don't try and slide it in. It's a lot harder to do that. Instead, grip at the back of his collar with just the hand (palm up), and then basically slide your elbow down. Yes, they'll block it with their arms, but if you're heavy enough with the pressure, it'll move in the end. Once it's in, adjust it a little bit so it's tight, then start working with the other hand.

Finishing the choke - in general, the second grip should be palm down. It's much easier and gives you much more opportunity to base if you start to get rolled. The principle in this is pretty much the same - start with a grip a little back on the collar (just try to get the thumb in, really), and then 'shave the face', bring the elbow and forearm down and around, and apply the pressure from there. Again, they'll block it, but if you pressure it for long enough, it goes from being uncomfortable to painful to not being able to breathe to tapping.

All of this is dependent, of course, on having a very tight mount and believing in the technique. But we are talking about Roger, who basically put all his weight on Romulo for, oooh, six minutes until Romulo couldn't take it anymore and he passed. So that kinda goes without saying.

This is one of my favorite finishes. From mount, it is a powerful technique. From guard, not so much because it is really the weight and the smashing that makes it work.

The single big difference, I believe, between a guy like Roger using this choke and using it in class is that the guys who are good with it basically just batter you into submission. They take their grip and just crush you with their elbow and forearm. It's not a slick move so much as a horribly brutal assault. It's almost the exact opposite of a collar choke from guard, which is a slick timing type move.

My professor showed me some details on it which he said he got from Rickson. A lot of what he showed was how once you have the grip, you can steer the guy around with it. Instead of thinking it as a submission to execute, it's more like a brutal control position. Frankly I think most high level submissions are better thought of that way -- you're not looking to finish so much as exert dominating control through the setup.

One thing I really like to do is drop the elbow HARD, with almost all my weight on it, once I get the first grip. I'm basically balancing on the elbow onto the chest, keeping my weight off my feet and hips, almost like a yoga pose. The pressure is horrible, and your opponent will start thrashing from side to side to get out, giving up either a deep choke or an armbar.

Roger has choked me with this. It was not fun.

I asked him to explain the finer details, which I will share with you:

The first thing is base. Let's say you want to get your right hand in first. Post out with your left hand and lean over to the left, preventing the guy from bridging/bucking you off to the right.

The next thing is to get the right hand in deep. After that it's all over. Experienced opponents know this and will defend tenaciously. If you just try to push your hand using shoulder strength, the guy will most likely be able to keep it out.

What Roger does is to brace his right elbow on the inside of his hip bone/inner thigh and then lean forward, using his body weight to force the hand inside the collar. Get it deep.

Next step. Zankou has it spot on. Move the elbow onto his breastbone and lean your bodyweight on it as hard as you can. Vicious. I was considering tapping just from that.

Next reach over his head with your left arm and base on your left elbow. Hook your thumb inside his collar near his left trap, palm up. Then bring your left elbow up over his face in a quick movement and apply the choke. Since only your thumb is hooked in, it helps if you have inhuman grip strength like Roger. Leaning forward and basing your head on the ground often makes it tighter.

Even if it isn't perfectly across the throat the guy will tap, believe me.

Against Roger, my recommendation would be to worry less about the neck, which he will get anyway, and do everything you can to recover half-guard quickly. Good luck with that. Haha.

Hope this helps you guys.

 

[ShowUsYaJits]

It's a good thread, but it's long and I actually consolidated what I could (that was of worth) into the following:

Thanks for going to that trouble! That thread is awesome, and I guess it is some consolation for the hours I've spent reading over sherdog, to wind up with a really good sub like that. I'll have to check out the vid, since I haven't yet.

Offtopic: I wonder when Roger himself will release an instructional or book even. He must not want to reveal his secrets until he's past his prime.

 

[RearAndNaked]

It's a good thread, but it's long and I actually consolidated what I could (that was of worth) into the following:

Basic choke principles with gi --- http://bjjtech.free.fr ---

Hahaha that's my instructor losing his air supply. One love, Kev!

 

[RibCrusher**]

erase this

lol, you typed erase this?

so you erased something else and wrote erase this?

that must be some good shit.

 

[xMikeyX]

Can someone break this down for me (a vid would be awesome). I know the basics - getting a deep collar grip with thumbs out, the the second grip with the thump in.

I am looking for the real fine details

- How to get the original grip deep in the collar
- How to shift your weight to keep from getting rolled
- How to set up that second grip
- How to squeeze out the finish

I have been trying to watch Rogers competition video's, but it is hard to pick out the small things.

Finer details

- How to get the original grip deep in the collar- hand off one hand to the other- grab low on the lapel and trumbone your choking hand deep inside- then elbow stuff.

- How to shift your weight to keep from getting rolled- its all in keeping your knees pinched, leaving a little space between you and your opponent for resisting bucking, crossing your feet and where your head is relative to theirs.

- How to set up that second grip- reach across and drag the elbow across their head- fuck the choke- just elbow their head off (slowly)

- How to squeeze out the finish- breathing- I would just think of it as bracing for your opponent's final fight- I would also not think of it as a squeeze as much as a drive- you can breathe comfortably here so you should.

 

[Fedorzilla]

The original cross-choke thread was even blogged about... epic

Roger Gracie Cross Choke from Mount Kungfu Dad's Blog





Here he does exactly what Mythago says in my post above "Next reach over his head with your left arm and base on your left elbow. Hook your thumb inside his collar near his left trap, palm up. Then bring your left elbow up over his face in a quick movement and apply the choke. "

 

[Ybot]

Since I do things that are a little different than the previous videos, I quickly made this vid last night with my digital camera. Sound is a little low to understand, but if you have any questions about how or why I do something, let me know.

 

[TalkShowOnMute]

Since I do things that are a little different than the previous videos, I quickly made this vid last night with my digital camera. Sound is a little low to understand, but if you have any questions about how or why I do something, let me know.

Thanks Toby! Great details. I've never even noticed the opportunity to use the shoulder to stop their blocking arm. That is pretty sweet.

 

[Simonsimon]

I like the detail about when you have the first grip you first put your head on the same side as the grip to lift him up with the hand and at the same time put preasure to his chest with your arm/elbow and get the second grip.

1. Can this solve my problem about people turning away from the first grip and by that nullifying the choke?

2. Altough Roger seems to put his head on the other side (where he doesn't have his first grip) right away, which way is the best?

3. Personally I have to make a decision: Should I focus my cross chokes on the version Ralek, Roger, or Toby does it? Or is the version where you put your second grip directly into place most high percentage?

If someone takes his time and answers these questions I will be very very happy =)

Thanks

 

[Easto]

Hey guys thanks a lot of all the info. Sorry I haven't been back earlier to say thanks, but I have been spending the last 3 days working 14hrs a day.

 

[Ybot]

I like the detail about when you have the first grip you first put your head on the same side as the grip to lift him up with the hand and at the same time put preasure to his chest with your arm/elbow and get the second grip.

1. Can this solve my problem about people turning away from the first grip and by that nullifying the choke?

Driving your knuckles to the mat and putting pressure with your forearm help make it difficult for the guy to turn. If you keep the arm down, and they do turn (they can only turn one direction) you will be in perfect position to take their arm!

2. Altough Roger seems to put his head on the other side (where he doesn't have his first grip) right away, which way is the best?

I find that you have to be adjusting your base constantly. I often, though not always, put my head to the down to that side first to keep my weight to that side because my arm is trapped and it would be possible for them to upa and roll me to the other side. I just find than putting my head down makes it more difficult. You can do like Roger and put it to the other side too, but I find you have to keep your forehead down in contact with the mat the whole time as a part of your base so you don't get rolled. I do that too. It all depends on how the person is defending.

3. Personally I have to make a decision: Should I focus my cross chokes on the version Ralek, Roger, or Toby does it? Or is the version where you put your second grip directly into place most high percentage?

Definitely I have found it is much higher percentage to do it with one deep grip first, then work for the second... Seems to work great for Roger too, so that's all I need to know.

If someone takes his time and answers these questions I will be very very happy =)

Thanks

Hope your happy!

 

[nefti]

first in my opinion, you must learn how to maintain mount. That means you need the sensitivity to adjust your base/grips depending on how your opponent reacts and your "base" needs to improve to the point where you can hold mount. That is what i have learned. The longer i can hold mount the higher the chance of me cross choking from the mount.

 

[Ybot]

Thought I might as well add this while I'm at it too. LOL

 

[TalkShowOnMute]

^What was the guy on bottom trying to do there? He didn't even seem like he was trying to fight the grips. Cassio sank the first, and then he didn't even try to block the second, and it got deeeeeeep. And I was like, what's going on with the guy on bottom? Sweet choke.

 

[Simonsimon]

Thanks Ybot