CroCop In The UFC , Exposed ? or Injures ?

[Mikedh]

Cro Cop absolutely belongs in UFC.

There was numerous proponents on SD asking for Iishi's admission in UFC.

Probably people that had not seen him fight.

 

[olimpicus]

he has that weird twitching of his arm, he is a lot older than his current age
was a beast in the day, very fast, explosive and well left leg, etc

 

[L0ki]

Probably people that had not seen him fight.

I have to consider that I may be staring through rose colored glasses.

Cro Cop swore "I will never be submitted by neck crank again" (reference to the Alexei Oleinik bout).

If people believe Satoshi should be admitted, and Mirko defeats him twice, how does Cro Cop not belong?

In the first fight? Yes, Ishii won round 1. Round 2, Mirko was winning and he stopped the fight.

The second fight. Round 1 could have swung either way. Round 2? We saw the LHK for a devastating KO.

Because his last run wasn't so great, he can't make comeback? Did Andrei Arlovski not make comeback?

 

[VAfan]

Weren't nog and shogun champions in ufc?

yeah but they still didn't look too good compared to their pride days.

nog was close to being stopped by herring, was getting tooled by sylvia and then went zombie against mir.

shogun looked awful in his first few fights (and yes I know about the knee), and never looked remotely as fast as he had been. he managed to beat chuck when chuck was in his end-of-career freefall and apart from the 2nd machida fight really didn't do too much else.

you can use excuses like injuries or staph or whatever but the fact is the only pride guy who came over and looked the same or better was Anderson - who was such a freak athlete that he probably didn't even need the PEDs and / or didn't use them.

 

[Megatronlee]

He just seemed tentative tbh

 

[crofighter]

Cro-cop was an excellent kickboxer who developed a style inside of a square ring, for a square ring. He used this to his advantage very well cutting off his opponents. This is very overlooked when observing his ineffectiveness in the Octagon where, opponents can circle away forever and move much more freely.

Cro-cop was burned out, period. You UFC nutthuggers need to learn to swallow this pill. The demon that was wrecking cans AND good fighters in pride was no longer by the time he came over to the UFC. On the record, he was very verbal about participating in politics, and he had many many hard battles. Also, I hate to say it, but Fedor broke him.

On top of all of this, yes the competition in the UFC had grown AFTER PRIDE DIED, and he was running into an entirely new world of fighters, many of which he would have likely destroyed in his earlier form in the ring.

What are you talking about? Fedor didnt break him at all. 2006 is clear proof. Mirko always wanted a rematch. And if there was/is/will be any fighter that could beat Fedor, then that was 10th Septembers 2006 Cro Cop.

 

[Mikedh]

I have to consider that I may be staring through rose colored glasses.

Cro Cop swore "I will never be submitted by neck crank again" (reference to the Alexei Oleinik bout).

If people believe Satoshi should be admitted, and Mirko defeats him twice, how does Cro Cop not belong?

In the first fight? Yes, Ishii won round 1. Round 2, Mirko was winning and he stopped the fight.

The second fight. Round 1 could have swung either way. Round 2? We saw the LHK for a devastating KO.

Because his last run wasn't so great, he can't make comeback? Did Andrei Arlovski not make comeback?

Satoshi Ishii isn't that good. His resume consists of semi-retired fighters, guys on vacation and those are not great fighters for an up and comer to sharpen his skills against and as such he has been stagnant since his debeut five years ago. He's never beaten another fighter that had been having any kind of sucess. Not to mention he had to beat old Pedro Rizzo via robbery. I wouldn't put very much stock in beating him at all.

Arlovski is five years younger and has performed much better over the past few years. Cro Cop is a famous and well paid fighter, they would only put him with the bigger named guys and we don't need to see them knock out 40 year old Mirko.

 

[JaxFJay]

yeah but they still didn't look too good compared to their pride days.

Still were the best at the time even as "washed up" compared to their prime

 

[deviake]

yeah but they still didn't look too good compared to their pride days.

nog was close to being stopped by herring, was getting tooled by sylvia and then went zombie against mir.

shogun looked awful in his first few fights (and yes I know about the knee), and never looked remotely as fast as he had been. he managed to beat chuck when chuck was in his end-of-career freefall and apart from the 2nd machida fight really didn't do too much else.

you can use excuses like injuries or staph or whatever but the fact is the only pride guy who came over and looked the same or better was Anderson - who was such a freak athlete that he probably didn't even need the PEDs and / or didn't use them.

Anderson, coincidentally, had also taken far, FAR less damage than most or all of the other PRIDE fighters who came over, most of whom had already been in wars and had storied careers at that point.

Look, do you really think PED testing stops people from taking them...? Do you really think testing was remotely a factor, like people in the UFC weren't using? Think of the interviews of athletes talking about how most or all professionals use them, and the fact that Olympians have gone years-and-years without getting caught, and vehemently insisted they were clean.

 

[VAfan]

Anderson, coincidentally, had also taken far, FAR less damage than most or all of the other PRIDE fighters who came over, most of whom had already been in wars and had storied careers at that point.

Look, do you really think PED testing stops people from taking them...? Do you really think testing was remotely a factor, like people in the UFC weren't using? Think of the interviews of athletes talking about how most or all professionals use them, and the fact that Olympians have gone years-and-years without getting caught, and vehemently insisted they were clean.

some guys get away with it but I'm sure the testing does serve some purpose. guys do get caught and there are consequences when it happens.

and considering it was a known fact that pride didn't test at all, they were testing the hell out of those guys whenever they went elsewhere to fight (as evidenced by guys like Barnett and overeem popping hot outside of pride).

so I'm sure the move to the ufc did cause most of the pride guys to at the very least slow their programs down or eliminate them altogether.

if it didn't then why is overeem no longer ubereem? if everyone gets away with it that easily then why stop?

 

[neckbeard]

I think the cage messed with his game a LOT

its funny everybody says that because now when he gets put on the Ropes he gets taken down almost immediately. But in the cage in UFC he didn't get taken down very often. he learned how to use the cage in UFC towards the end. People like Schaub couldn't keep them on the cage. he actually broke schaubs nose open while he had shop on the cage. the kids might have been CRO cops downfall in the beginning but towards the end he learned how to use it. Now he looks lost in a ring

 

[emax]

You can't act like just because one fighter wasn't shot after a certain amount of damage doesn't mean another one won't be.

Not saying Cro Cop was shot but each fighter is subjective man.

And plus none of the UFC fighters he listed as counterexamples actually had a full fight career in another combat sport before MMA like Cro Cop. So when he says the kickboxing excuse is bullshit, the guys he listed don't really prove that.

 

[Jermei]

Its not s mystery....well I'm from croatia so I'll shed some light on that. We had an opportunity to see him in many interviews after OWGP that weren't translated and published in foreign press.

So, going in to the Silva fight in semifinals Mirko had a broken foot. He had received a painkiller injection to the left foot prior the match.(according to his personal doctor) Go and watch the video - he KO's Silva and a than he is mad, limping around the ring and even pushing the arm of his manager at the time off him. Cause he hurt his foot even more. And he had to face barnett in a few hours.

So he went to the locker room and demanded of his doctor that he gives him another injection. His doctor said that Mirko gave him a look that he could not refuse him, but he gave him a neutral liquid hoping far a placebo effect, cause it would be dangerous to give him more painkillers.

And then he used his foot even more against barnett.
Before coming to uff he had foot surgery and knee surgery. I think his fourth.

Thanks for the insight! I always wondered about his emotions after the Wand fight but yeah he probably messed his foot up on Wands head. Such a boss event for CroCop, KO's prime Wand and destroys a prime Barnett in the same night.

He was never the same and you're probably right he may have wrecked his foot too many times and decided he couldn't throw that kick anymore. I was always asking 'where's the left high kick?' as he wasn't using in the UFC. Very frustrating end to his career.

On a side note, I watched him fight Kongo when I was traveling in Split, Croatia and was so excited to see him kick his ass while watching in a Croatian bar and yeah, we all know what happened in that fight...

 

[emax]

I think by the time we was in the UFC, his ability to take a punch was pretty much going, going, gone and he was basically fighting only because he felt he had no other way to make a paycheck and had an addition of sorts to it. Much of the deep passion for fighting he showed in PRIDE was gone. And his inability to translate to cage fighting was a factor too; we still see numerous non American fighters struggle with the concept of fighting in a structure like the Octagon. As far as the competition excuse, well, I mean, he had in the past gone up against fighters as good or better than freaking Schaub and completely put their lights out. And so I'm not sold on that idea entirely.

 

[neckbeard]

People need to remember the context of CroCop right before he won that GP.

He was saying that if he didn't win it he was going to retire. So on the brink of him retiring he happens to win his greatest accomplishment (GP's often produce unseen results due to match-up's and strength of opponents).

UFC then snapped up an about-to-retire pelack of motivationrson, who also moves across the world into an entirely different rule set and cage (that's clearly not as favorable to his skill set) and he fades out.
It's easy to look back out of context if you weren't around at the time, and say he was at his peak, but that really wasn't the case.

Crocop wasn't saying he was going to retire leading up to the Grand Prix. He said it after you won it. He could have been exaggerating. He obviously wasn't going to stay retired even if he did retire after he won it.. I hate when Crocop discussions come up because everyone just recycles the same garbage opinions over and over again. elbows, cage, steroids,surgery, lack of motivation...

 

[deviake]

some guys get away with it but I'm sure the testing does serve some purpose. guys do get caught and there are consequences when it happens.

and considering it was a known fact that pride didn't test at all, they were testing the hell out of those guys whenever they went elsewhere to fight (as evidenced by guys like Barnett and overeem popping hot outside of pride).

so I'm sure the move to the ufc did cause most of the pride guys to at the very least slow their programs down or eliminate them altogether.

if it didn't then why is overeem no longer ubereem? if everyone gets away with it that easily then why stop?

Since when is Overeem not still a beast...? And who said anyone stopped...?

Not that I'm an expert by any means, but it seems like you haven't seen a lot of interviews or read too many articles about this.

Try 'Bigger Stronger Faster', maybe google 'Olympians busted for PED's (or 'steroids'), 'Cyclists busted for PED's', look up the recent Chael Sonnen interview or various other interviews from athletes, etc.

A lot of the info I've found basically says PED's are kind of the unkept secret of professional sports, and are a job requirement once one gets to a certain level. At the very least you have to acknowledge that the ones getting busted are FAR from the only ones using, they're just the only ones to screw up.

 

[Hans Gruber]

Was CroCop exposed as someone that wouldn't of cut it as someone that could become champ in the UFC or was the time he signed in the UFC in 2007 that he was past it , wear and tear , years of injuries from kickboxing and MMA accumulated ? ( the guy had been fighting since he was 22 years old)

It wouldn't seem so to me as the year before became the PRIDE grand prix champion ( which arguably was the peak of his MMA career ) after beating Barnett ... what do you guys think ?.

A lot of long time fighters (with less fights than Cro Cop) started going downhill the same time. Chuck is a great example. He wasn't exposed. When fighters fall it often happens quick and hard. Chuck even fell faster than Cro Cop did ( Chuck went 1-5 in his last 6 with 4 KO losses)

 

[VAfan]

Since when is Overeem not still a beast...? And who said anyone stopped...?

Not that I'm an expert by any means, but it seems like you haven't seen a lot of interviews or read too many articles about this.

Try 'Bigger Stronger Faster', maybe google 'Olympians busted for PED's (or 'steroids'), 'Cyclists busted for PED's', look up the recent Chael Sonnen interview or various other interviews from athletes, etc.

A lot of the info I've found basically says PED's are kind of the unkept secret of professional sports, and are a job requirement once one gets to a certain level. At the very least you have to acknowledge that the ones getting busted are FAR from the only ones using, they're just the only ones to screw up.

overeem is not as big as he used to be, there's been a lot of discussion around that. and he is clearly much slower now than he was when he had help. so he's obviously not stuffed to the gills with the stuff anymore and there has to be a reason (i.e. fear of getting caught).

i'm not saying that PED use doesn't go on in the ufc, but to say the testing does nothing is exaggerating.

there is a clear speed and aggression change that took place with a large # of fighters who came over from pride, as soon as they came over and fairly dramatically - there's a lot of denial over that here but as aforementioned that is mainly hero worship dying hard.

and for me, crocop specifically was actually the smoking gun. no one is going to convince me that you go from winning the pride grand prix to looking completely outclassed against vastly inferior competition within the space of less than a year.

 

[deviake]

overeem is not as big as he used to be, there's been a lot of discussion around that. and he is clearly much slower now than he was when he had help. so he's obviously not stuffed to the gills with the stuff anymore and there has to be a reason (i.e. fear of getting caught).

i'm not saying that PED use doesn't go on in the ufc, but to say the testing does nothing is exaggerating.

there is a clear speed and aggression change that took place with a large # of fighters who came over from pride, as soon as they came over and fairly dramatically - there's a lot of denial over that here but as aforementioned that is mainly hero worship dying hard.

and for me, crocop specifically was actually the smoking gun. no one is going to convince me that you go from winning the pride grand prix to looking completely outclassed against vastly inferior competition within the space of less than a year.

Is Overeem actually smaller, or have a bunch of Sherdoggers been comparing pictures of him flexing from different angles with different lighting? The slowness I haven't noticed, but perhaps you're correct.

Cro Cop was taken down by a large grappler and smashed with elbows - a move that wasn't legal in his entire fighting career up until one fight prior, and - if I recall correctly - he hadn't even been training in a cage up until that point.

He had reached the apex of his career just prior to entering the UFC, and a lot can happen in over a year's time. As someone above pointed out, he had trouble with his foot and knee before entering the UFC and had had multiple knee injuries throughout his career prior to that.

But none of that negates the fact that testing doesn't stop people from using. Again, Olympians get away with using. We know this for a fact.

We're both speculating, but my speculations are coming from facts and professional athletes themselves. PRIDE fighters may not have been used to having to hide their use, but that doesn't mean guys in the UFC weren't using. The UFC's testing standards back then weren't even nearly as good as now, and as I said, even Olympians get away with this stuff. To say that the PRIDE guys had to stop their use and that was their downfall is a bold claim which isn't substantiated by much, and no offense, but you don't seem like you've looked into this issue much.

 

[GSP_37]

Clearly a downward spiral of injuries, lack of confidence, hesitation, lather, rinse, repeat. If only he had a better manager to keep him out of action when injured.