Critique My 2013 Master/Senior Worlds match please

[DFWGrappler]

I would like you guys thoughts on my match from this years 2013 Master/Senior Worlds. Lost by one advantage. Final 2-2 score with my opponent scoring an advantage for I guess "flattening my shoulders from half guard". Funny I was even givin a stall warning while on top working for subs then my opponent lays on me (after getting a reversal)for minutes and doesnt get a warning. I went for 2 kimuras, Guilotine and got a couple near reversals yet no advantages for any of it. Im the one in blue...so I was just curious what you're seeing? And please no bullshit just your honest opinion please.. Thanks!

http://youtu.be/5J0WOOR35yg

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Well, before watching I will say that flattening your opponent in half guard is an automatic advantage, and that's pretty well known. Did you just come on here to complain and hoping people would validate your obvious opinion that you won? Or do you legitimately want technical advice?

 

[DFWGrappler]

Well, before watching I will say that flattening your opponent in half guard is an automatic advantage, and that's pretty well known. Did you just come on here to complain and hoping people would validate your obvious opinion that you won? Or do you legitimately want technical advice?[/

I was totally unaware that flattening the shoulders was an advantage. If that's an advantage then it's f**ckig GAY. My bad if that's "well known" maybe I should be givin my white belt back something.. Is that good enough? No bro I want your opinion on rather I did enough to deserve at least An advantage or not for my sub attempts or reversal attempts..Not your opinion on rather I won or lost. Just getting a lot of different opinions from training partners and coaches ect. So I thought I would ask..

 

[metallifan3091]

Here's how I scored it, for what it's worth:

2-0 Blue sweep
Stalling penalty blue
2-2 White sweep
Ref restart in center
Advantage White for flattening Blue in half guard

Final Score: 2-2 with 1 advantage for white

My reasoning: Your first kimura attempt (on top) wasn't close enough for an advantage, in my opinion. Same thing with the guillotine, which was actually probably a tactical mistake on your part, given that you essentially conceded the sweep to go for it. When you attempted your kimura from bottom half guard, it again wasn't close enough in my opinion to warrant an advantage.

I'll be honest with you: I don't know how close it officially has to be for an advantage to be awarded, but it seems to me that unless you at least break the guy's grip so that his arm is in some small danger, it shouldn't count.

Again, I think that the kimura from bottom half might have been a bit of a tactical error on your part, as you committed to it so completely that when your opponent got his arm free, you didn't really seem ready to block the crossface or pummel your far underhook in, which allowed him to flatten you out, where he got an advantage.

The last offensive attempt you really had was your sweep right before the match ended, and based on my understanding of the rules, it JUST barely wasn't close enough to be awarded an advantage. I believe that if you had completely come up on top instead of remaining in a 'dogfight' position on your side, even for a second, you would have gotten the advantage, and possibly the referee's decision based on your submission attempts.

A side note: his 'stalling' that you were complaining about almost completely took place while he was defending your kimura attempt. I could be wrong, but I believe that it's impossible to be penalized for stalling while someone is trying to submit you. Maybe someone else can comment on this.

Just my two cents.

EDIT: Just saw your comment to SSR. I don't mean to sound like a patronizing dick here, but READ THE RULES. At this level (at any, really) of competition, it is absolutely essential that you know what you are and aren't allowed to do, how you score points and advantages, how they are scored on you, etc. If you didn't know the rules (which are published online for your perusal), then you really have no right to complain about how the match was scored. This is true whether you're competing at a big tournament like this or at an in-house tournament at an MMA school or anything in between. Know the rules before you step on the mats.

 

[DFWGrappler]

Besides it doesn't matter at this point rather I won or lost..just trying to learn so it doesn't happen next time!!

 

[Newcastle]

Around the 2:50 mark when your opponent has the underhook I would have preferred a crossface rather than an overhook on his head. This allowed him to get underneath you and eventually sweep. To me that was the crucial moment during the match. I realize you were hunting for subs on bottom but at some point I would look to sweep when the subs aren't happening to at least swing the match back in your favor. Just my $0.02.

 

[DFWGrappler]

Here's how I scored it, for what it's worth:

2-0 Blue sweep
Stalling penalty blue
2-2 White sweep
Ref restart in center
Advantage White for flattening Blue in half guard

Final Score: 2-2 with 1 advantage for white

My reasoning: Your first kimura attempt (on top) wasn't close enough for an advantage, in my opinion. Same thing with the guillotine, which was actually probably a tactical mistake on your part, given that you essentially conceded the sweep to go for it. When you attempted your kimura from bottom half guard, it again wasn't close enough in my opinion to warrant an advantage.

I'll be honest with you: I don't know how close it officially has to be for an advantage to be awarded, but it seems to me that unless you at least break the guy's grip so that his arm is in some small danger, it shouldn't count.

Again, I think that the kimura from bottom half might have been a bit of a tactical error on your part, as you committed to it so completely that when your opponent got his arm free, you didn't really seem ready to block the crossface or pummel your far underhook in, which allowed him to flatten you out, where he got an advantage.

The last offensive attempt you really had was your sweep right before the match ended, and based on my understanding of the rules, it JUST barely wasn't close enough to be awarded an advantage. I believe that if you had completely come up on top instead of remaining in a 'dogfight' position on your side, even for a second, you would have gotten the advantage, and possibly the referee's decision based on your submission attempts.

A side note: his 'stalling' that you were complaining about almost completely took place while he was defending your kimura attempt. I could be wrong, but I believe that it's impossible to be penalized for stalling while someone is trying to submit you. Maybe someone else can comment on this.

Just my two cents.

Awesome Thank you.. That's exactly what I was looking for. I had several people with several different theorys about what they see or think on this match. Ive only competed in 4 IBJJFs so im not aware of a lot of the advantage points and how they play out..Is there such thing as an advantages 101 books?? again thanks for taking time to explain your thoughts!! Oh and your right about tactical errors at least on the Guilotine attempt!!

 

[DFWGrappler]

Around the 2:50 mark when your opponent has the underhook I would have preferred a crossface rather than an overhook on his head. This allowed him to get underneath you and eventually sweep. To me that was the crucial moment during the match. I realize you were hunting for subs on bottom but at some point I would look to sweep when the subs aren't happening to at least swing the match back in your favor. Just my $0.02.

I see your point ..probably could have pummeled back in to there to! And yes i should have went for sweep frommbottom in hindsight ..I got caught snoozing on the time. That 5 minute round seemed like 2 as most of the tourneys I do are 8 min now. I was kind of surprised when the bell blew as I thought I still had time. I was solo so no coaches helping me with watchig the clock.

 

[metallifan3091]

Sure thing, man. I'm happy to help. As far as a rulebook dedicated to advantages goes, I'm not aware of one, which is a bit unfortunate. However, the official IBJJF Rulebook (which can be found here: http://ibjjf.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/20130123_RuleBookIBJJF_v2.pdf) does go into some detail regarding advantages, for submission attempts, sweep attempts, and half guard stuff.

As a general rule, for a submission attempt to warrant an advantage, "The athlete shall be awarded an advantage-point when he/she attempts a submission hold where
the opponent is in real danger of submitting. Again, it is the referee’s duty to assess how close the
submission hold came to fruition."

For half guard: "When the athlete achieves half-guard position, with exception to reverse half-guard."

My interpretation of the half guard advantage (and the most common one that I'm aware of) is that an advantage shall be awarded if the fighter on top dominates the half guard in such a way that the bottom fighter is flattened out. The most common way that this happens is with the crossface and underhook, but I don't think that they're required for the advantage to be given, as long as the bottom fighter is no longer on his side.

Also for the sake of reference, reverse half guard would be when the top fighter's hips are switched (like a long step/backstep) and he is basing on his hip. If you flatten your opponent out from this position, no advantage shall be awarded until you switch your hips back so that you are no longer basing on your bottom hip anymore. A picture is worth a thousand words, and the rulebook has pictures for this situation.

Also, I think that this video is worth a watch. It's long, so breaking it up into pieces might be best.



A note on the video: The takedown rules have changed since the video was made, but if you read the description of the video on Youtube, those changes are listed for the sake of clarity.

 

[DFWGrappler]

Sure thing, man. I'm happy to help. As far as a rulebook dedicated to advantages goes, I'm not aware of one, which is a bit unfortunate. However, the official IBJJF Rulebook (which can be found here: http://ibjjf.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/20130123_RuleBookIBJJF_v2.pdf) does go into some detail regarding advantages, for submission attempts, sweep attempts, and half guard stuff.

As a general rule, for a submission attempt to warrant an advantage, "The athlete shall be awarded an advantage-point when he/she attempts a submission hold where
the opponent is in real danger of submitting. Again, it is the referee

 

[SD619BJJ]

Good pain here.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Well, before watching I will say that flattening your opponent in half guard is an automatic advantage, and that's pretty well known. Did you just come on here to complain and hoping people would validate your obvious opinion that you won? Or do you legitimately want technical advice?

I'm one of the biggest BJJ nerds around and I had no idea that was an automatic advantage.

In terms of your match, take it with a grain of salt because I'm a purple belt who's not especially successful in competition, but I thought you tried too hard to force the action after the sweep when you were on top in half guard. You had a good position with the underhook, he looked like he was trying wait for you to do something so he could better his position. You were up two, you could have outwaited him and it looked like his position had a lot of potential but he would have had to give you a chance to pass if he was going to really try and improve it. I think he only swept you because you tried too hard to pass right away. Personally, I find it really hard to stay chill and wait for a guy to make a move, but it's not stalling if he's also just waiting for you to move. Sometimes whoever moves first is going to be at a disadvantage, and in this case the imperative to do something was on him, not you (since you were up).

I could be totally wrong about that, it's always hard to tell in static positions if the guy on bottom is making really small adjustments and so maybe you had to move first, I don't know. But to me the turning point in the match was when you tried to force the action and he subsequently got the underhook. I think he was just waiting for you to move so he could work his arm out and get deep, and that's exactly what happened. I guess my advice would be that if you're in a good position and you feel like your opponent has a lot of dynamic possibilities but is waiting for you to move, then don't move. Or move really, really slowly. But don't try to force the action when it's very dangerous for you to do so.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I was totally unaware that flattening the shoulders was an advantage. If that's an advantage then it's f**ckig GAY. My bad if that's "well known" maybe I should be givin my white belt back something.. Is that good enough? No bro I want your opinion on rather I did enough to deserve at least An advantage or not for my sub attempts or reversal attempts..Not your opinion on rather I won or lost. Just getting a lot of different opinions from training partners and coaches ect. So I thought I would ask..

In that case, yes, I think the match was scored correctly, except I don't agree with the stalling call. I think they usually give them to the person who is ahead, but in my opinion if you were stalling then he was stalling just as much. I had it 2-2 with an advantage for the other guy, and only for the half guard thing (FWIW I don't think he flattened you when he was awarded the advantage, but he definitely did it a few seconds later). In the grand scheme of things, I think your attempt at the kimura and your near sweep at the end, and your near pass after your initial sweep, should be worth more than his flattening you in half guard. But under the rules, there was nothing foul there.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I'm one of the biggest BJJ nerds around and I had no idea that was an automatic advantage.

I dunno, I thought it was pretty known that if you flatten the guy, like with an underhok and crossface, it's an automatic advantage. Pretty sure it's stated in the IBJJF rules.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I dunno, I thought it was pretty known that if you flatten the guy, like with an underhok and crossface, it's an automatic advantage. Pretty sure it's stated in the IBJJF rules.

It very well may be stated in the rules, but I would guess that the % of people who have memorized all the IBJJF rules is relatively small, probably including even the refs. Or maybe it's just never come up since the two areas I've primarily trained don't have a lot of IBJJF competitions nearby (hence none of my coaches or training partners have spent a lot of time poring over the rules).

 

[Knock Out Ned]

I dunno, I thought it was pretty known that if you flatten the guy, like with an underhok and crossface, it's an automatic advantage. Pretty sure it's stated in the IBJJF rules.

That rule has been around for a least a couple of years now I believe. It's amazing how many people (including myself) don't know the rules (this isn't directed at you Uchi). I reffed a blue match a couple of years ago, and fuck all happened during the match. One of the guys did manage to flatten the other guy out in half guard with an under hook while trying to pass. I gave the guy an advantage point and the match ended. The other guy got super pissed off and started to complain that he won the match

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

It very well may be stated in the rules, but I would guess that the % of people who have memorized all the IBJJF rules is relatively small, probably including even the refs. Or maybe it's just never come up since the two areas I've primarily trained don't have a lot of IBJJF competitions nearby (hence none of my coaches or training partners have spent a lot of time poring over the rules).

I've actually never competed in an IBJJF tournament.

 

[Calibur]

^^^ werd?

 

[DFWGrappler]

I'm one of the biggest BJJ nerds around and I had no idea that was an automatic advantage.

In terms of your match, take it with a grain of salt because I'm a purple belt who's not especially successful in competition, but I thought you tried too hard to force the action after the sweep when you were on top in half guard. You had a good position with the underhook, he looked like he was trying wait for you to do something so he could better his position. You were up two, you could have outwaited him and it looked like his position had a lot of potential but he would have had to give you a chance to pass if he was going to really try and improve it. I think he only swept you because you tried too hard to pass right away. Personally, I find it really hard to stay chill and wait for a guy to make a move, but it's not stalling if he's also just waiting for you to move. Sometimes whoever moves first is going to be at a disadvantage, and in this case the imperative to do something was on him, not you (since you were up).

I could be totally wrong about that, it's always hard to tell in static positions if the guy on bottom is making really small adjustments and so maybe you had to move first, I don't know. But to me the turning point in the match was when you tried to force the action and he subsequently got the underhook. I think he was just waiting for you to move so he could work his arm out and get deep, and that's exactly what happened. I guess my advice would be that if you're in a good position and you feel like your opponent has a lot of dynamic possibilities but is waiting for you to move, then don't move. Or move really, really slowly. But don't try to force the action when it's very dangerous for you to do so.

Thanks for the Review...the reason I forced the action at that point was because I got called for stalling. So I had no other choice...just went about it the wrong way.

 

[DFWGrappler]

In that case, yes, I think the match was scored correctly, except I don't agree with the stalling call. I think they usually give them to the person who is ahead, but in my opinion if you were stalling then he was stalling just as much. I had it 2-2 with an advantage for the other guy, and only for the half guard thing (FWIW I don't think he flattened you when he was awarded the advantage, but he definitely did it a few seconds later). In the grand scheme of things, I think your attempt at the kimura and your near sweep at the end, and your near pass after your initial sweep, should be worth more than his flattening you in half guard. But under the rules, there was nothing foul there.

Yea the stall call was my main concern..the guy had my arm clamped down and just laying there.. I was trying to get my arm out but he was very strong and had it clamped down tight where I couldn't get it in or out. And yea that's what everyone has said to me was that I went for more so how does he just hold my arm then blanket me while on top and get the win?