Couture vs toney question (spoiler)

[iluvwhitecastle]

The funny thing about using Wikipedia as a source is that you or I could have just written that.

can't change things in certain areas of individual pages. and apparently they proofread everything cause i changed a bunch of shit on M night shyamalan's page and they removed it within minutes

 

[Quoth]

Post fight, Couture was awarded his black belt in Grappling No-Gi (Catch Wrestling based) under Neil Melanson.

taken from wiki

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

Yeah a guy who never enterged a sub grappling competition was able to go against one of the top 3 P4P BJJ guys and the world and stall and not give up points.

Do you think Jacare could do the same to Randy in a wrestling match?

Probably not, no.

But then again, Randy is 225lbs, and Jacare is about 190-5.

And i think if they would have forced Randy to engage, it would have been a different story.

And Randy didnt even get the takedown in that match.

Jacare came very close to a single leg off a deep half stand up. He also had Randy defending submissions almost the entire match. He was working a leg lock at the end of the first period as well.

You know, it's amazing...I keep hearing how awesome John Danaher is and all that jazz, yet unless I am not looking hard enough I cant find HIS competition videos either!

Can you post a link so I can judge his credentials by competition videos too?

Its a well known fact, Danaher has competed, and did rather poorly. Great fighters dont always make great coaches, and vice versa. Guys who are great coaches, are not always great fighters.

But nonetheless, Danaher's reputation speaks for itself. Neil has just recently come onto the scene as Randy's coach. And yes, there has been some obvious improvement in Randy's submission and grappling game. Albeit against less than stellar opposition.

But to come onto the scene the way he has, with the question's concerning his lineage(Karo gave him his BB in Judo? Or Gokor did? Is it even in Judo?), along with his decision to award traditional Jiu Jitsu rankings in his own style, is what has people questioning who he is.

A guy to compare him to is Erik Paulson. Who was never the best competitor, but has produced some great fighters both in grappling, and MMA.

But he went about it a different way. Established those fighters. He learned from other arts such as BJJ, and Sambo, and Catch, and worked out his own system, but also had enough respect to not try to make a comparison to those arts by awarding rank based off of them.

He has his own system of Catch as well, which he awards levels. But even if he didnt, everyone knows his guys can prove themselves on the mat.

 

[fourfif**]

I see what you're saying.

But if he got his blackbelt from a a Judoka I would assume... and I may be wrong here, but I'm going to assume it's basically a modified traditional Judo ranking system, which at it's core is Japanese Jiu Jitsu, in the same way Paulson teaches catch wrestling which might be considered a form of modified/refined catch as catch can/sub wrestling.

It would be nice to have a squad of grapplers representing your camp and doing well in competition, or at least trying to. To be a pure mma grappling coach and giving out belts without even a nod to competitive pure grappling would be kind of weird I think....

but if he's repping Gokor, then I just have to shrug since they obviously have people that can and will do well in some form of combat grappling, and participate in pure grappling tournaments.

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

Thats the thing though, hes not repping Gokor as far as i can tell.

Hes not on Gokor.com. Ive never heard Karo or Gokor mention him.

But to be clear, im not doubting hes trained under them. Its just strange the way he is going about it, and the way he leaves his exact lineage/backround up in the air. (I.e. is he a Judo BB? Did he just study Catch/Sub Wrestling? If it was the latter, how is he ranked from them?)

 

[David Kennedy]

I keep hearing you guys mention Gokor... what does the guy from Dragonball - Z have to do with grappling. I don't think I ever saw him armbar Vegeta

 

[Spawned_Fighter]

i still think it wouldve been funnier if they wouldve given him a white belt

 

[knoxpk]

Probably not, no.

But then again, Randy is 225lbs, and Jacare is about 190-5.

And i think if they would have forced Randy to engage, it would have been a different story.

And Randy didnt even get the takedown in that match.

Jacare came very close to a single leg off a deep half stand up. He also had Randy defending submissions almost the entire match. He was working a leg lock at the end of the first period as well.





Its a well known fact, Danaher has competed, and did rather poorly. Great fighters dont always make great coaches, and vice versa. Guys who are great coaches, are not always great fighters.

But nonetheless, Danaher's reputation speaks for itself. Neil has just recently come onto the scene as Randy's coach. And yes, there has been some obvious improvement in Randy's submission and grappling game. Albeit against less than stellar opposition.

But to come onto the scene the way he has, with the question's concerning his lineage(Karo gave him his BB in Judo? Or Gokor did? Is it even in Judo?), along with his decision to award traditional Jiu Jitsu rankings in his own style, is what has people questioning who he is.

A guy to compare him to is Erik Paulson. Who was never the best competitor, but has produced some great fighters both in grappling, and MMA.

But he went about it a different way. Established those fighters. He learned from other arts such as BJJ, and Sambo, and Catch, and worked out his own system, but also had enough respect to not try to make a comparison to those arts by awarding rank based off of them.

He has his own system of Catch as well, which he awards levels. But even if he didnt, everyone knows his guys can prove themselves on the mat.

I get what you are saying.

I think however that fighters (and wrestlers) of the caliber he is working with would be able to sniff out a "BS" artist.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I think it's at least worthwhile to clear up the confusion. BJJ practitioners are rightfully concerned that belts in their art are being awarded to people in MMA without formal bjj training. Are people saying that Randy isn't a top level submission grappler? No, of course not, he definitely is (maybe his guard isn't great). But if people in this thread have established that it's a "black belt" in Neil's system, then we should clear up confusion like this:

Neil Melanson awarded Couture a BJJ black belt at UFC 118.

-Jake Rossen, Sherdog.com

UFC 118 Postmortem: Lights Dim for Toney, Edgar Repeats, More

 

[YeahBee]

Karo can't award anybody a formal judo blackbelt either

 

[Chute Stomp]

It's not a BJJ black belt if Melanson isn't one himself, that should be end of story.

I think Couture and Melanson are planning to open a series of Extreme Couture gyms all over the country to take advantage of mma's growing popularity. They won't teach BJJ, not in name anyway, but Melanson/Couture brand submission grappling. It'll be marketed as "more suited mma" and shit like that.

The whole awarding of a blackbelt to Couture was a big pre-planned marketing stunt.

 

[knoxpk]

It's not a BJJ black belt if Melanson isn't one himself, that should be end of story.

I think Couture and Melanson are planning to open a series of Extreme Couture gyms all over the country to take advantage of mma's growing popularity. They won't teach BJJ, not in name anyway, but Melanson/Couture brand submission grappling. It'll be marketed as "more suited mma" and shit like that.

The whole awarding of a blackbelt to Couture was a big pre-planned marketing stunt.

You may be right. I am not sure about the ppv numbers but if there was a "NEW" base of boxing fans watching they might want to try out some sort of grappling to compliment the boxing aspect already. By walking to the ring with the BB on he differentiates himself from regular wrestling and corners the boxing fan market who want to do what Randy did without realizing they could have done the same with Judo/wrestling/Sambo and BJJ.

 

[RemyR]

I don't see what everyone is up in arms about.

If you were to ask him if he is a BJJ black belt Randy would say no. Same with Neil Melanson.

 

[Rws177die]

I think it was funny and that was was supposed to be the point of it.

 

[KJGould]

I think it's at least worthwhile to clear up the confusion. BJJ practitioners are rightfully concerned that belts in their art are being awarded to people in MMA without formal bjj training. Are people saying that Randy isn't a top level submission grappler? No, of course not, he definitely is (maybe his guard isn't great). But if people in this thread have established that it's a "black belt" in Neil's system, then we should clear up confusion like this:



-Jake Rossen, Sherdog.com

UFC 118 Postmortem: Lights Dim for Toney, Edgar Repeats, More

This basically shows the double edged sword that is BJJ's prevalence. People assumed it was BJJ, even on MMA Live. When I have heard Melanson say JiuJitsu to someone it's a case of dumbing down what he does because the people he ends up talking to are general reporters covering MMA who aren't that technically minded themselves.

The whole awarding of a blackbelt to Couture was a big pre-planned marketing stunt.

How can it be a stunt if they didn't make it clear that it was a black belt in Couture / Melanson's grappling system? If it was a marketing stunt, they'd have called it Xtreme Couture Jiu Jitsu but they're not. It's not this serious gesture people are trying to make it out to be, more than anything it was amusing. You won't see Couture come out with it to his next fight or put it on afterwards (like Anderson Silva just did).

As I said earlier, until Catch Wrestling or Catch Wrestling based grappling becomes more known through competition, there's going to be a dumbing down process to explain to people what it is and there's going to be people making the assumption it's BJJ (as if belts never existed outside of BJJ).

BTTinUSA mentioned Erik Paulson not using belts for his CSW system. But he uses levels. 5 levels, 1-5. Just like there are 5 colours for belts, White to Black. Melanson isn't using belts or levels, but stripes. And the stripes are the same colours so people can make the connection.

If you wanted to enter a grappling competition and told someone you were level 1 or level 5 in CSW you'd be greeted with a dog-just-shown-a-card-trick expression. When you tell them level 1 means you're a whitebelt, 2 blue, 3 purple etc They understand and know what division to put you in to compete. Or they might not let you enter because they could say "Sorry, you must have a belt, we don't recognise levels". Even if it's a no-gi submission wrestling competition. It does happen.

Melanson considers himself a Catch Wrestler, and that's more the mind set and strategies he brings to the table; his own outlook on grappling. He's also a guard player and likes triangle chokes.

I too would like to hear from Parysian, Chivichyan and LeBell's mouth about Melanson just so it can be put to rest.

 

[Kimuralex]

The reason it is unclear is because bjj is the first and only art to have a red bar (for degrees) on its blackbelt. TKD, karate, judo, and the rest of the arts have plain blackbelts, sometimes with just stripes or writings and etc. The red bar was unique to BJJ.

Coutures blackbelt had the red bar, that is why some people are confused.

 

[Kimuralex]

Its a well known fact, Danaher has competed, and did rather poorly. Great fighters dont always make great coaches, and vice versa. Guys who are great coaches, are not always great fighters.

Really? where did you get that info from?

 

[skey91***]

Probably not, no.

But then again, Randy is 225lbs, and Jacare is about 190-5.

And i think if they would have forced Randy to engage, it would have been a different story.

And Randy didnt even get the takedown in that match.

Jacare came very close to a single leg off a deep half stand up. He also had Randy defending submissions almost the entire match. He was working a leg lock at the end of the first period as well.





Its a well known fact, Danaher has competed, and did rather poorly. Great fighters dont always make great coaches, and vice versa. Guys who are great coaches, are not always great fighters.

But nonetheless, Danaher's reputation speaks for itself. Neil has just recently come onto the scene as Randy's coach. And yes, there has been some obvious improvement in Randy's submission and grappling game. Albeit against less than stellar opposition.

But to come onto the scene the way he has, with the question's concerning his lineage(Karo gave him his BB in Judo? Or Gokor did? Is it even in Judo?), along with his decision to award traditional Jiu Jitsu rankings in his own style, is what has people questioning who he is.

A guy to compare him to is Erik Paulson. Who was never the best competitor, but has produced some great fighters both in grappling, and MMA.

But he went about it a different way. Established those fighters. He learned from other arts such as BJJ, and Sambo, and Catch, and worked out his own system, but also had enough respect to not try to make a comparison to those arts by awarding rank based off of them.

He has his own system of Catch as well, which he awards levels. But even if he didnt, everyone knows his guys can prove themselves on the mat.

I'm not going say this guy is a John Danaher or has that kind fo reputation.

But to me, if Randy Couture wants you to be his coach than you are legit, end of story.

 

[tysnw]

Karo can't award anybody a formal judo blackbelt either

why not?

 

[curb1850]

I don't see what the big deal is. Its mostly a marketing stunt I would think, and a pretty decent one seeing that everyone is aware it happened.