Couture vs Jacare

[The Alpha Male]

Hey guys, does anyone know where I can find the full match online? The only thing I can find is a preview of the grappling match. Thanks!

 

[SFinclined]

You aren't missing anything, Couture stalled the entire match.

 

[Sloth]

I think they sell the la sub x event DVDs online somewhere. Good match ups! The Couture vs Jacare match was relatively uneventful, but iirc jacare had a couple of nice leg attacks I think.

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

Jacare had a sick kneebar attempt at the end of the first period.

He also almost took Randy down with a single leg from a deep half standup.

 

[The Alpha Male]

Oh wow. Even though I have heard some people on here say that Couture just played defense, it's still nice to look at and absorb all the positional details of the match. Because after all, position precedes submission.

 

[CyberFreq]

Frankly, the fact that Randy was able to not get subbed by Jacare was fantastic.

 

[wOg]

Frankly, the fact that Randy was able to not get subbed by Jacare was fantastic.

I have to admit that this sentiment drives me crazy. It reminds me of how MMA crowds tend to cheer louder when guys escape submission than when they are caught in them in the first place.

 

[knoxpk]

I have to admit that this sentiment drives me crazy. It reminds me of how MMA crowds tend to cheer louder when guys escape submission than when they are caught in them in the first place.

It depends, even in BJJ they say position> than submission. So (in mma) you are far more effective landing strikes from a position of advantage.

It seems here that even failed submissions > than position. Randy and Jacare train for 2 different things as the "main" or previous thing yet share MMA as a common game they both play.

Randy trains to take people down and control them as his "past" and main game and over the last several years he has used that to win titles. Jacare focuses on something slightly different yet is also great in MMA.

The fact that Randy was able to play what in essence was Jacare's game and still leave the mat with what most consider should have been a decision loss but ended up a draw speaks volumes. I sincerely doubt that Jacare could play Randy's prior game and leave without at LEAST getting tech'd most likely pinned. I dont think that Jacare could even stall his way to a decision loss let alone a draw with Randy in any form of wrestling match, freestyle/folkstyle..never mind greco!

 

[J Sho]

meh, so a formerly elite wrestler outstalls a formerly elite bjj player he outweighs by 30 to 40 lbs.

 

[knoxpk]

meh, so a formerly elite wrestler outstalls a formerly elite bjj player he outweighs by 30 to 40 lbs.

You forgot to mention this all happend in what was for all intents and purposes a bjj match.

I wonder If jacare could stall his way to a draw vs a 160lb formerly elite (AND YOUNGER) Greco champion?

HMMMM lemme think about that for 1/4 of a second. NO!

 

[fourfif**]

You forgot to mention this all happend in what was for all intents and purposes a bjj match.

I wonder If jacare could stall his way to a draw vs a 160lb formerly elite (AND YOUNGER) Greco champion?

HMMMM lemme think about that for 1/4 of a second. NO!

he would get smashed.

five pointer, feet in the air and over his head, then touch fall.

 

[crocoppertones]

two of the greatest black belts to ever hit the matt

 

[J Sho]

You forgot to mention this all happend in what was for all intents and purposes a bjj match.

I wonder If jacare could stall his way to a draw vs a 160lb formerly elite (AND YOUNGER) Greco champion?

HMMMM lemme think about that for 1/4 of a second. NO!

not younger, but he seemed to do ok vs Lindland

YouTube - Ronaldo "Jacar

 

[knoxpk]

not younger, but he seemed to do ok vs Lindland

YouTube - Ronaldo "Jacar

 

[BJJ_Rage]

It depends, even in BJJ they say position> than submission. So (in mma) you are far more effective landing strikes from a position of advantage.

It seems here that even failed submissions > than position. Randy and Jacare train for 2 different things as the "main" or previous thing yet share MMA as a common game they both play.

Randy trains to take people down and control them as his "past" and main game and over the last several years he has used that to win titles. Jacare focuses on something slightly different yet is also great in MMA.

The fact that Randy was able to play what in essence was Jacare's game and still leave the mat with what most consider should have been a decision loss but ended up a draw speaks volumes. I sincerely doubt that Jacare could play Randy's prior game and leave without at LEAST getting tech'd most likely pinned. I dont think that Jacare could even stall his way to a decision loss let alone a draw with Randy in any form of wrestling match, freestyle/folkstyle..never mind greco!

its different and you trying to make a point where there cant be none, a wrestler and a bjj praticioner share one thing in comun, both look to control the opponent once they are on top, much different from a catch wrestler, who dives for submissions (damm I love to watch good catch guys) pretty much from anywhere... one of the big difference between a bjj guy and a wrestler is that in a wrestling match, YOU CANNOT LAY ON YOUR BACK with your both shoulders against the mat for like 3 secs (could be wrong, please correct me if I am)... we live and train off out backs, in a wrestling match, jacare could submmit randy with a tringle choke in a wrestling match, and he would've still lost the match... though a wrestler in a submission grappling match can do pretty much all they are train to do in they entire carrer...

wrestling rules go against the nature of bjj, bjj rules do not go against the nature of wrestling rules, just add some more stuff like finishing the match... Please note that im not talking about details, im talking about the nature of both styles....

 

[knoxpk]

its different and you trying to make a point where there cant be none, a wrestler and a bjj praticioner share one thing in comun, both look to control the opponent once they are on top, much different from a catch wrestler, who dives for submissions (damm I love to watch good catch guys) pretty much from anywhere... one of the big difference between a bjj guy and a wrestler is that in a wrestling match, YOU CANNOT LAY ON YOUR BACK with your both shoulders against the mat for like 3 secs (could be wrong, please correct me if I am)... we live and train off out backs, in a wrestling match, jacare could submmit randy with a tringle choke in a wrestling match, and he would've still lost the match... though a wrestler in a submission grappling match can do pretty much all they are train to do in they entire carrer...

wrestling rules go against the nature of bjj, bjj rules do not go against the nature of wrestling rules, just add some more stuff like finishing the match... Please note that im not talking about details, im talking about the nature of both styles....

You are on the right path but also you are a little off center. In the type of match they grappled in it took away Randy's greatest advantage and biggest asset in wrestling. The takedown.

Remember also in the international wrestling styles exposure is rewarded, not control. It is all about exposing the opponents back in FS/Greco, while holding them there CAN win the match just exposing the back scores. So those styles train to take a man to his feet and towards his back. If you think of a Judo Ippon, this is also the same type of throw or takdown that gets rewarded the most.

* Takedown (1 to 5 points): A wrestler is awarded points for a takedown when the wrestler gains control over his opponent on the mat from a neutral position (when the wrestler is on his feet). At least three points of contact have to be controlled on the mat (e.g. two arms and one knee; two knees and one arm or the head; or two arms and the head).[28]

(5 points) - Five points are awarded for a takedown brought about by a throw of grand amplitude (a throw in which a wrestler brings his opponent off of the mat and controls him so that his feet go directly above his head) either from the standing or par terre position into a direct and immediate danger position.[29]
(3 points) - Generally, three points are awarded for a takedown brought about by a grand amplitude throw that does not bring his opponent in a direct and immediate danger position or for a takedown in which a wrestler's opponent is taken from his feet or his stomach to his back or side (a throw of short amplitude) so that he is in the danger position.[29]
(1 point) - One point is awarded for a takedown brought about by a wrestler taking his opponent from his feet to his stomach or side such that his back or shoulders are not exposed to the mat.[30]

* Reversal (1 point): A wrestler is awarded one point for a reversal when the wrestler gains control over his opponent from a defensive position (when the wrestler is being controlled by his opponent).[30]
* Exposure also called the Danger Position (2 or 3 points): A wrestler is awarded points for exposure when the wrestler exposes his opponent's back to the mat for several seconds. Points for exposure are also awarded if a wrestler's back is to the mat but the wrestler is not pinned. Criteria for exposure or the danger position is met when 1) a wrestler's opponent is in a bridge position to avoid being pinned, 2) a wrestler's opponent is on one or both elbows with his back to the mat and avoids getting pinned, 3) a wrestler holds one of his opponent's shoulders to the mat and the other shoulder at an acute angle (less than 90 degrees), 4) a wrestler's opponent is in an "instantaneous fall" position (where both of his shoulders are on the mat for less than one second), or 5) the wrestler's opponent rolls on his shoulders.[31] A wrestler in the danger position allows his opponent to score two points. An additional hold-down point may be earned by maintaining the exposure continuously for five seconds.[28]
* Penalty (1 or 2 points): Under the 2004

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You are on the right path but also you are a little off center. In the type of match they grappled in it took away Randy's greatest advantage and biggest asset in wrestling. The takedown.

Remember also in the international wrestling styles exposure is rewarded, not control. It is all about exposing the opponents back in FS/Greco, while holding them there CAN win the match just exposing the back scores. So those styles train to take a man to his feet and towards his back. If you think of a Judo Ippon, this is also the same type of throw or takdown that gets rewarded the most.



This is why you see moves like a leg lace score or gut wrench or gator roll. They dont show control, they simply "expose" the man's back to the mat.

So you take away 2 of Randy's 3 most practiced areas by having rules like you stated, all he has left then is the pin in which case this type of event does not reward him pinning in guard so he has to pass which a wrestler in a wrestling match would not bother doing.

I dont see how this allows Randy to use his strengths. It would have been a MUCH close "mixed style" match had Jacare somehow been forced to stand by rewarding Randy with takedowns points if Jacare conceded the takedown by pulling guard.

Randy was forced to "wrestle" the entire fight in Jacare's element while Jacare was NOT forced to "wrestle" In Randy's.

I dont see how you can make that argument. Especially in a grappling match. In a "fight" or mma bout, ok because of the strikes there would be some way to punish the guy who pulls guard, even if you cannot pass.

im fairly ignorant when comes to rules of wrestling...

 

[Jdonw]

It depends, even in BJJ they say position> than submission. So (in mma) you are far more effective landing strikes from a position of advantage.

It seems here that even failed submissions > than position. Randy and Jacare train for 2 different things as the "main" or previous thing yet share MMA as a common game they both play.

Randy trains to take people down and control them as his "past" and main game and over the last several years he has used that to win titles. Jacare focuses on something slightly different yet is also great in MMA.

The fact that Randy was able to play what in essence was Jacare's game and still leave the mat with what most consider should have been a decision loss but ended up a draw speaks volumes. I sincerely doubt that Jacare could play Randy's prior game and leave without at LEAST getting tech'd most likely pinned. I dont think that Jacare could even stall his way to a decision loss let alone a draw with Randy in any form of wrestling match, freestyle/folkstyle..never mind greco!

Your point is mostly invalid since Randy trains submission grappling now and has for the extent of his mma career. If you are going to give Randy props for stalling out Jacare and not being submitted, you should also be congratulating Jacare for almost getting the take downs. The rules of the match favored stalling anyway.

 

[knoxpk]

Your point is mostly invalid since Randy trains submission grappling now and has for the extent of his mma career. If you are going to give Randy props for stalling out Jacare and not being submitted, you should also be congratulating Jacare for almost getting the take downs. The rules of the match favored stalling anyway.

I was simply replying to this comment:

meh, so a formerly elite wrestler outstalls a formerly elite bjj player he outweighs by 30 to 40 lbs.

and explaining how the "wrestler" portion of the equation was rendered largely invalid due to the rules. I went into detail above. I too think Jacare was the better sub grappler simply due to activity.

 

[Number1Wrestler**]

Saying Randy stalled the entire match just doesn't make any sense. Its no different than saying that Tank Abbott's bench press wasn't legit because he bounced it off of his chest.