Correlation between attempted guillotines and losing fights?

[lakersfan45]

It still works against mid tier overrated fighters

 

[EndlessCritic]

Semantics are important when their isn't a clear definition. That's why the Kampmann/Volkmann is now called a ninja choke .

By what authority do you proclaim that it's now called a ninja choke? I just Google searched Kampmann volkmann ninja and got this thread I made 5 years ago where I expressly stated that Volkmann/Kampmann was not a ninja choke.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/etymology-of-the-ninja-choke.2530903/

 

[Flboycanscrap2]

By what authority do you proclaim that it's now called a ninja choke? I just Google searched Kampmann volkmann ninja and got this thread I made 5 years ago where I expressly stated that Volkmann/Kampmann was not a ninja choke.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/etymology-of-the-ninja-choke.2530903/

I am not making an argument from authority, that is a logical fallacy. Your are making one of those right now by referencing a thread that YOU started as evidence. (I haven't checked your reasoning yet to be convince but will read the thread)

That choke has been colloquially called a ninja choke forever on the forums and where ever I have trained. It is a widely used description.

Hell, it is even described as such on Martin Kampmann's wikipedia page, which hasn't been edited since 5/7/18

 

[dmwalking]

Obviously, in BJJ being on your back doesn't always mean you're losing.

How is the ninja choke inferior to the no arm guillotine, you can do everything that a no arm and more? Also how is the ninja choke NOT the most evolved form of all the modified guillotine grips, like high elbow (marcelotine) or palm to palm (mckenzietine).

The way you're going on about the ninja choke, either you don't train or you just discovered it. The ninja choke has been around for a LONG time. If it were really that evolved, we'd see much more of it. The ninja choke's mechanics relies too much on arm squeeze to finish the choke. It doesn't have nearly as much power as a marcelotine. I've seen it attempted multiple times in the UFC and it has failed every time except for Kampmann. It's clearly not the most evolved guillotine grip by a long shot. Again, there's a reason why it hasn't caught on. Everyone knows about it. But it's just weak compared to the marcelotine.

 

[Flboycanscrap2]

The way you're going on about the ninja choke, either you don't train or you just discovered it. The ninja choke has been around for a LONG time. If it were really that evolved, we'd see much more of it. The ninja choke's mechanics relies too much on arm squeeze to finish the choke. It doesn't have nearly as much power as a marcelotine. I've seen it attempted multiple times in the UFC and it has failed every time except for Kampmann. It's clearly not the most evolved guillotine grip by a long shot. Again, there's a reason why it hasn't caught on. Everyone knows about it. But it's just weak compared to the marcelotine.

Wrong. I have been training in martial arts for 23 years and BJJ specifically for 11 years and been watching the sport for 14 years. Yes the ninja choke has been around for a long time. The first time I think I saw the ninja choke was Torres/ Beebe in North American MMA.

You can also refer to my posts on this thread below to see my debate with another user. He doesn't even believe that Kampmann/Volkmann is a ninja choke.

It is clear that there isn't an objective definition as to what a ninja choke even is, and optimally the front choke variant is much more powerful and relies less on squeeze than the guillotine variant.

Overall the collection of ninja chokes have become much more popular recently and the Marcelotine is incredibly rare in MMA. Power difference between the two "guillotines" is debatable, but the front choke ninja choke is clearly superior in power because you can crush the neck with your whole body weight.

Being able to switch between the two variants quickly is what makes the ninja choke EVOLVED. It has multiple levels of danger.

Semantics are important when their isn't a clear definition. That's why the Kampmann/Volkmann is now called a ninja choke versus the power guillotine/death choke/modified guillotine that it was called at the time. The term ninja choke seemingly hadn't gained widespread use yet. Hell, Jon Fitch currently refers to his side choke of Brian Foster as HIS ninja choke.

Moreover, from what you are espousing, a ninja choke can only be a front choke and not a guillotine with the chest controlling the back of the head and neck.

Furthermore, in the example of the D'Arce, finishes like that only became popular after the Japanese Necktie came to prominence. Then people started finishing Japanese Neckties with the D'Arce grip but people still referred to the finish as a D'Arce even though the finish fundamentally changed e.g. being close to the opponent's body vs perpendicular and trapping the leg vs sprawling. Even more than that the D'Arce itself supplanted the Brabo choke just with a grip change.

I discussed all of this with my BJJ black belt co-worker and we believe it is clear that the only main advantage a guillotine has over a ninja choke is the set up is easier because getting the ninja choke grip is harder to achieve, especially if you don't have long arms. After the grip is achieved the difference in application of pressure is all in favor of the ninja choke, especially without needing great squeeze ability.

I am not making an argument from authority, that is a logical fallacy. Your are making one of those right now by referencing a thread that YOU started as evidence. (I haven't checked your reasoning yet to be convince but will read the thread)

That choke has been colloquially called a ninja choke forever on the forums and where ever I have trained. It is a widely used description.

Hell, it is even described as such on Martin Kampmann's wikipedia page, which hasn't been edited since 5/7/18

 

[Deleted member 409801]

No one does it like CM Punk.

Jesus , he looks like someone's annoying 4 years younger little brother giving it his to no avail. Amazing that guy got sanctioned

 

[campbecc]

Are you serious? Sweeping to top position from a failed guillotine is incredibly rare, maybe initiating a scramble at best and that is only if you have a butterfly. Once a guy pops his head out you have lost your anchor point and don't have any under hooks.

The ninja choke is a modified guillotine and can be finished from more positions and with less control of the rest of the body. It also has much higher initial squeeze potential. Much better for MMA.

they probably don't really mean a failed guilotine; they probably mean using an attempt while you still have their neck to sweep but won't get the submission.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Watch

The fight


Again


This has been repeated so many times it hurts my head. It was either guillotine or let Stipe stand up. There were no other options available.

Wrooooong

Only one sub attempt led to a stand up. The others were all Conor

No. He did not have to pull guard you are absolutely wrong there. I can’t say he was wrong to do it since maybe he was really sure he had it, and if I remember right it was near the end of the round

 

[Flboycanscrap2]

they probably don't really mean a failed guilotine; they probably mean using an attempt while you still have their neck to sweep but won't get the submission.

If what you are saying is a sweep after the grip is broken but the head is still in, I can get behind that.

 

[Cam Zink]

Ask Chad how he feels about it.

Teep the tummy.

Rearrange his facial structure.

Nobody can take that LEFT.

shut the fuck up

 

[dmwalking]

Wrong. I have been training in martial arts for 23 years and BJJ specifically for 11 years and been watching the sport for 14 years. Yes the ninja choke has been around for a long time. The first time I think I saw the ninja choke was Torres/ Beebe in North American MMA.

You can also refer to my posts on this thread below to see my debate with another user. He doesn't even believe that Kampmann/Volkmann is a ninja choke.

It is clear that there isn't an objective definition as to what a ninja choke even is, and optimally the front choke variant is much more powerful and relies less on squeeze than the guillotine variant.

Overall the collection of ninja chokes have become much more popular recently and the Marcelotine is incredibly rare in MMA. Power difference between the two "guillotines" is debatable, but the front choke ninja choke is clearly superior in power because you can crush the neck with your whole body weight.

Being able to switch between the two variants quickly is what makes the ninja choke EVOLVED. It has multiple levels of danger.

What's your lineage? Who do you train under? I'm just super skeptical about your claims. The ninja choke uses your whole body weight? LOL. The ninja choke is basically a RNC. There is no bodyweight involved in a RNC. It's all arm squeeze. With the ninja choke, even if you do it standing like Kampmann, it's all arm squeeze. The only way to get real pressure on it is to pull guard to torque the chin down into the choke.

I've actually used every choke in discussion and the no arm guillotine is definitely stronger than the ninja choke. Ninja choke is a novelty. There's a reason the marcelotine is called the marcelotine. There's a reason why Marcelo is not famous for the ninja choke. LOL.

 

[campbecc]

If what you are saying is a sweep after the grip is broken but the head is still in, I can get behind that.

I think they just misspoke when they said failed.

 

[Flboycanscrap2]

What's your lineage? Who do you train under? I'm just super skeptical about your claims. The ninja choke uses your whole body weight? LOL. The ninja choke is basically a RNC. There is no bodyweight involved in a RNC. It's all arm squeeze. With the ninja choke, even if you do it standing like Kampmann, it's all arm squeeze. The only way to get real pressure on it is to pull guard to torque the chin down into the choke.

I've actually used every choke in discussion and the no arm guillotine is definitely stronger than the ninja choke. Ninja choke is a novelty. There's a reason the marcelotine is called the marcelotine. There's a reason why Marcelo is not famous for the ninja choke. LOL.

Are we really going there? Most recently I trained under George Birkadze and Phil Meyers at Combat Sports Boston. They are both long time black belts. I don't know their lineage.

The problem is it seems like you aren't watching the sport, and you arent understanding what I'm saying.

The front choke variant ninja choke is like a no arm D'Arce or Japanese neck tie and is the most common nowadays.

Check Arnold Allen vs Mads Burnell for a super recent one.

 

[dmwalking]

Are we really going there? Most recently I trained under George Birkadze and Phil Meyers at Combat Sports Boston. They are both long time black belts. I don't know their lineage.

The problem is it seems like you aren't watching the sport, and you arent understanding what I'm saying.

The front choke variant ninja choke is like a no arm D'Arce or Japanese neck tie and is the most common nowadays.

Check Arnold Allen vs Mads Burnell for a super recent one.

I don't watch the sport as often as I once did. I only watch the UFC these days. And I really don't recall any successful ninja chokes. I know what a ninja choke it. Yes, it's like a no arm darce, which makes it a RNC. LOL. Definitely not a Japanese neck tie because you maintain the gable grip in a JNT. I know the technique. I've used it before. It's not as good as you think it is. Low level fighters using it against other low level fighters proves nothing.

 

[Final Say]

No. He did not have to pull guard you are absolutely wrong there. I can’t say he was wrong to do it since maybe he was really sure he had it, and if I remember right it was near the end of the round

he didnt have to pull guard, but if he wasnt going for the guillotine (guard or no guard), stipe was getting up. there was no other option at the time.

 

[dmwalking]

Check Arnold Allen vs Mads Burnell for a super recent one.

Ok, I get what you mean by "putting all your weight on it." Yeah, the same can be said about pretty much any front choke. Guillotine, 5 finger guillotine, darce, anaconda. If you manage to get on top, you can put all your weight into it and make it more powerful. But had he ended up on his back, the fight may not have ended.

 

[Flboycanscrap2]

Ok, I get what you mean by "putting all your weight on it." Yeah, the same can be said about pretty much any front choke. Guillotine, 5 finger guillotine, darce, anaconda. If you manage to get on top, you can put all your weight into it and make it more powerful. But had he ended up on his back, the fight may not have ended.

Obviously, except you do not have to control the lower body like in all those submission.

 

[superpunch]

I can't believe people think that MMA hasn't evolved. OSP isn't even a title challenger yet he's more skilled than anyone from 2005-2010. People just blow him off as a nobody but he's extremely talented and would KO or submit all the 2005 guys: Randy, Chuck, Tito, Wanderlei, Shogun, etc. Can you imagine Chuck going for that armbar right there??

 

[dmwalking]

Obviously, except you do not have to control the lower body like in all those submission.

You don't have to control the lower body for a darce or anaconda either. But it's still ideal. *shrug*

 

[Airdack]

Looks like Nate Diaz and Mayweather can pretty well

Nate got dropped twice in his ufc career, once by benson, once by josh. He got dropped 4 times in a single fight with Conor, he took some serious damage between both fights, hes gonna be feeling that shit down the road, I wouldnt call handling it well compared to the rest of his career. He dismantled michael johnson who is a pretty damn good southpaw boxer

Mcgregor couldnt even hit mayweather lol, he landed one partially deflected uppercut.