Control options from Judo counter

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Carrera26, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. Carrera26

    Carrera26 Orange Belt

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    I am a Judo brown belt (Sankyu, first of 3 grades) who has been having alot of fun with no-gi lately, but a very specific situation keeps coming up.

    A lot of the guys I have worked with that didn't start in Judo of course go for singles and doubles. My training gives me a pretty good base and 95% of the time I stall them out. There are clearly many options from here, but the simplest and quickest (especially if they are bulldozing forward) is a counter called Tawara Gaeshi. I can't post video here from work but perhaps another kind sould will.

    Very simply, if you are sprawled with your opponent going for single or double, you reach down and wrap your arms around their waist (or grab belt/gi in Gi), sit your butt close to your heel and roll backwards. They will flip over the top of you quite easily, and the more force/momentum they contribute the faster it goes.

    Now here's the issue. With a waist-deep grab, you end up mostly under them, both facing up. I have gotten to where it's not so tough to at least end up on their side so I'm not stuck under their weight, and I grab at the ribcage instead of waist so I'm not SOOOO deep, but from here it just keeps turning into a scramble. My best tactic so far has been to drop my arm down and... ummm.... (I would describe it as an overhook, as they're arm is in my armpit, but it's North-South both facing up so that's a bit confusing) and trying to keep them down with head pressure on their ribs till I can get myself spun around for side control. This isn't exactly a position with a ton of leverage though and so it's hard for me to maintain control.

    Anybody have any ideas on this? I went to a MMA/No-Gi place in Savannah while on business and they had an hour-long wrestling class where I got this over, and over, and over. Everytime I roll no-gi it's just right there, staring me in the face and I have to think that there's at least a couple good options.
     
  2. arubukah

    arubukah White Belt

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    I usually try for an inverted triangle from that position, or go for a foot/leglock.
     
  3. Throatpoker

    Throatpoker Black Belt

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  4. unhommefou

    unhommefou White Belt

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    EDIT: Deleted. Had to reread post. Answered a question that did not exist.

    Personally, I'm all about the Sumi Gaeshi when counter single legs/double legs, but that is just due to how I'm built.
     
  5. Carrera26

    Carrera26 Orange Belt

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    [​IMG]

    I know there are definitely other counters, but:

    A - It's very easy to do when you are getting pushed backwards and you're on the edge of getting taken down.

    B - Requires very little strength, and is very fast.

    C - Is apparently little known outside Judo/Sambo, based on how surprised everyone seemed when I got it, and kept getting it, on them.

    D - It just really feels like it's a little bit of development away form being something very solid.


    If it doesn't work it doesn't work, and as a last-resort an even scramble is a lot better than getting taken down in their control, but I'm hoping there's something workable.
     
  6. Nickynoneck

    Nickynoneck Purple Belt

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    The rice bail throw is good for judo as the roll can make you win by ippon stoppoing the match but i wouldnt do it in no gi , its better to sprawl look for an arm , get a kimura and use that to finish a sumi geaish ( spelling?) or if they have your leg in a single you hold on to the opponents wrist or armpit and to a sumi geashi (agian spelling?) its a better outcome then rolling and having the guy stall out on top of you .
    Trust me it wont work unless you really throw him but it will always end up in a scramble .
    I usually get arm control from a single when they shoot and twist making them fall on there backs .
     
  7. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

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  8. Nickynoneck

    Nickynoneck Purple Belt

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    Iam talking about sumi geashi i pull it off in no gi sometimes andre galvao does it in his instructional what the ts was saying about the rice bail throw is imo gonna end up in a bad position when he can use the sumi and just roll up on to him .
     
  9. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

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    It can be risky. You want to have a good guard game as a backup. I find sumi less risky than tawara.

    It's worth mentioning, in a judo context, sumi or tawara as a counter to morote-gari is a bad idea. There is a good chance that the score (ippon) will be given AGAINST you unless you can definitively show you have STOPPED the momentum of morote-gari. It's considered that HIS attack succeeded first and if you land on your back ... it's all over red rover.

    In MMA/BJJ there is no such consideration. I'd rather teach a BJJer sumi-gaeshi, though. There is a tendency to "get" sumi-gaeshi because of it's similarity to a butterfly sweep. It's essentially a butterfly sweep starting from standing position.
     
  10. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    Uchi mata is, in my opinion, a Judoka's #1 defense against most shots. Sumi gaeshi is also valid, as is tawara gaeshi.

    Ending up on your back with your opponent on top of you suggests that there might be a couple of things wrong with your technique. The most common mistake is seen also in sumi gaeshi as well as tomoe nage, and that is for tori to fall backwards. Of course they are all sacrifice throws and tori will end up on their back, but the key is to not fall backwards in an effort to get there. You should, in fact, make an effort to move INTO uke.

    When teaching tomoe nage, the description I use is to imagine grabbing and swinging under a metal hand railing. You feet swing far under, followed by the rest of your body. Or, if you prefer, as if in swing dancing when both of the woman's legs are swung deep between the mans legs. The goal is to get your center of gravity as far under your opponent as possible. In some instances I have been deep enough where my CoG was actually behind my opponent's.

    What tends to happen, however, especially with beginners, is that they fall back into the techniques. It is one of the reasons that many instructors will tell students not to attempt throws like tomoe nage when they are tired. Often people get tired and fall backwards into the throws because it is an easy entrance. The problem is that it is not particularly effective.

    In tomoe nage and sumi gaeshi, by falling backwards, you pull your center of gravity away from your opponent. This, in turn, requires your opponent's CoG to travel a certain distance before it is in a position where the body can rotate around it. It also decreases the effectiveness of your pull, as you end up fighting your own body due to the angle that the pivot point is placed as compared to your direction of pull.

    [​IMG]

    *Edit* I made up this quick picture. On the right hand side, the pivot point, having swung under uke, would be at the 12 o'clock position and thus the pull (red line) is not hindered by the arching motion. On the left, tori has sat back and thus the pivot point is near the 2 o'clock position. You can clearly see the disruption thus causes with the pull.

    In an excellent tomoe nage, the arch created by your pull will originate near the 12 o'clock position, and travel to the 9 o'clock position. This would indicate that you were able to get directly under uke's CoG. The pull, which comes from somewhere around the 10 o'clock position, is not hindered. In a situation where you fell back into either of the throws, the arch would now start from the 1 or 2 o'clock , requiring the climb back to 12 o'clock before descending to 9 o'clock. The pull is hindered by this upward motion, much the same way a pole vaulter is hindered - though obviously in a much less extreme example. In instances like this, uke often ends up performing some kind of sprawl type defense. Tawara gaeshi is not really any different, though due to the strong grip around uke's waist, there is a bit more wiggle room due to your ability to forcibly pull uke over you.

    With a good shot - that is, one where uke's posture is upright -it could prove to be difficult to complete the full rotation due to this exact same principle. You'll notice in the video posted above and with the still image sequence that uke's head is down, whereas in a reasonable shot, the head should be up.

    [​IMG]

    With tomoe nage and sumi gaeshi, we have the option and/or ability to elevate uke's lower half, and thus we can eliminate some of that arch. With tawara gaeshi, however, that ability is limited and the arch becomes much larger. The energy that would otherwise be spend propelling you all the way into mount, is used simply to overcome the upward stretch of the arch.

    Regardless, my point is that you may find more luck with sumi gaeshi than you do with tawara gaeshi. If you choose to go with tawara gaeshi, then you need to make an effort to break uke's posture before doing so in an effort to limit the amount of arch it takes to complete the throw. Also, while taking an extremely deep grip on the waist makes it easier to pull uke over you, it also gives you that much more of their body to work around once you hit the ground, and it also limits your ability to move your CoG under theirs. I might suggest taking a slightly higher grip and using that to facilitate the breaking of uke's posture, while also allowing you more space to swing UNDER them. Also make sure that you're not attempting to roll straight backwards, and are, instead, aiming over a shoulder in an effort to get your head out of the way... which is basic, but worth mentioning.

    Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2010
  11. Nickynoneck

    Nickynoneck Purple Belt

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    exactly , this is why you dont use sacafices all the time in bjj I use tomenage only to set up an armbar or sweep sumi i i only use if the shot is poor and iam fighting it off , but to do the rice bail throw it is truly a sacrafice move and if TS is looking for it it means hes actually letting the guy get in way to deep and that will create a bad habit of letting shots in to deep its bad news all around .
     
  12. bloosteak

    bloosteak Blue Belt

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    I saw Jake Shields do this
     
  13. rawpower

    rawpower Yellow Belt

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  14. Carrera26

    Carrera26 Orange Belt

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    Yeah, I learned Tawara as a yellow belt and hadn't really worked on it formally since then so I'm sure there's plenty I am missing. As I said, as I did it more I did start grabbing higher up on Uke and ending up a lot more on my side and mobile. I was definitely also doing Uchi Mata counter and a couple others, but since I have literally only had 3 practices so far with No-Gi, no wrestling experience, and no real instruction on the subject I was grasping at whatever seemed simple and reliable.

    In Gi I definitely like Sumi and Hikikomi Gaeshi better. In fact, I like the "gator roll" Hikikomi best of all, catches people watching for Sumi by surprise and ends up in great control. If anyone reading is wondering, to be grossly simplistic, Hikikomi Gaeshi is a butterfly sweep from standing with an over-the-back belt grab. The gator roll version is different and hard to explain, I HOPE this youtube embed works, won't be able to see it at my work computer but think I got the youtube vid ID off of Google. There are several throws in this vid, Hikikomi is about halfway through.

    Anyway, I did figure out that I could do the same basic throw in No-Gi with a deep over-under. Again, there's probably better stuff but I am playing around and seeing how what I already know translates well..

     
  15. Nickynoneck

    Nickynoneck Purple Belt

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    Bang on stuff when i was doing judo that stuff was my game , bjj and sub grappling is a different beast altogether though i wouldnt want to fail on one agaisnta good inverted guard player .


    this is total bragging here but i beat a brown belt in judo in my second ever tournament witha ura nage as a yellow belt it was at my home tournament also and the place went nuts .
     
  16. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    Notice at 8:05-8:06 the forward movement of tori's hips, rather than sitting backwards as is often seen.
     

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