Considering The Risk Of Heart Attacks related To Steroid Use...

[Toxxus]

Not at all, if i had said the people had died, that immediately gives the impression that their LVH and death were somehow linked, especially as this is a thread about heart attacks etc.

hence i deliberately avoided making that reasoning or giving that impression.




Of course that can be deduced from the study. How they died (or in fact, if they even did die) is irrelevant.

The only point that I was raising from it was that half of them had LVH (And all were steroid users)

Thats a pertinant point. Are you suggesting that they got LVH from suicide?




Its kinda hard to find living people willing to be cut up and have their hearts examined. Its also quite difficult to find subjects to admit to steroid use. The fact the subjects were dead for whatever reason is largely irrelevant.

The point of the study was, do people with a history of steroid use have a higher chance of having LVH.. the answer to that is a clear yes, regardless of whether the test subjects are alive or dead.

Their death no way impacts the specific study on LVH





You are focussing way too much on the "death" thing.. you seem convinced that I am implying that they died as a result of steroid use. Im not implying or suggesting that at all.

Im suggesting, that its clear from that study, that the rate of LVH seems related to people with a history of steroid use.

Ha! No, I'm not suggesting that suicide or homicide cause LVH problems.

I do feel that 67% of these guys being on OTHER drugs is a massive factor. So the fact that 25% of them were in a suicide/homicide situation - Which speaks more to mental health and the very strong tie-in to other illegal drug use - which would be a likely culprit for LVH problems.

It's like saying, "This guy was on steroids and died of a heart attack!" while leaving out the part where he was on a lethal overdose of cocaine...

 

[dim_]

I feel like that had the exact opposite effect. By leaving out the fact that they were all dead and that 2/3rds of them were using other drugs and 25% of them were in a homicide/suicide situation it suggests that 2/3rds of people using steroids have heart disease which cannot fairly be deduced from the results of the study.

A really important detail would have been - How many people on steroids did not die and/or did not have heart disease.

Did they all have a prior history of steroid use? Yes

Did half of them show signs of left ventricular hypertrophy? Yes

Is it therefore possible there is a link between steroid use and left ventricular hypertrophy? Yes


the rest is irrelevant.

 

[dim_]

Ha! No, I'm not suggesting that suicide or homicide cause LVH problems.

I do feel that 67% of these guys being on OTHER drugs is a massive factor. So the fact that 25% of them were in a suicide/homicide situation - Which speaks more to mental health and the very strong tie-in to other illegal drug use - which would be a likely culprit for LVH problems.

It's like saying, "This guy was on steroids and died of a heart attack!" while leaving out the part where he was on a lethal overdose of cocaine...

well no, because you take that information, and you look at other studies as well, and a pattern starts emerging.. for instance the second study linked which looked at another specific area, also points towards LVH as a result of steroid use.

no one study is ever overwhelming proof, but you take knowledge from each and see how they compliment each other.

 

[chubbman]

The 2 people I know who have had heart problems after roid abuse also liked to party hard, coke, Viagra, booze and what not. I don't just think roids are to blame on their own.

 

[dim_]

Or for those who dont get what LVH is

 

[faustian]

This post makes me want to take steroids.

Do it Mike. Do it.

 

[dim_]

I think to a degree as well, we dont yet know what the long term effects will be.

While steroids have been around a long time, they only really hit the mainstream in the 80's, and became hugely common in gyms after that.


if smoking only started in the 80's we probably wouldnt have worked out it caused lung cancer yet..

 

[BoxingFan653]

AAS raises blood pressure, that causes the left ventricle to enlarge over time, which is the primary cause of cardiac Myopathy, some refer to high blood pressure and hyper-tension as 'the silent killer'
Years of AAS abuse takes its toll on anyone, while everyone's repose to these medications is different, thinking that you are a superman and have a free pass to immunity from the sides, is perilous to your future health.

Key word is ABUSE and not steroid USE. There are responsible ways to take these hormones

 

[Flux]

It all comes down to abuse and diet period! Even on a doctor advised TRT replacement therapy your advised to not drink, smoke and also stick to a healthy diet to get the full effects then come the constant liver enzimes and blood cholesterol tests! Guys are taking steroids while drinking, not doing physicals and eating a TONE of garbage to put on muscle ............ That will catch up to anyone period.

 

[Toxxus]

Did they all have a prior history of steroid use? Yes

Did half of them show signs of left ventricular hypertrophy? Yes

Is it therefore possible there is a link between steroid use and left ventricular hypertrophy? Yes


the rest is irrelevant.

I feel like that is a really bad application of logic. The other article was far more compelling. The one we're discussing was about this useful:

Of all of our steroid-using dead people 100% of them drank water in the past - therefore there is a 100% correlation between dying and drinking water.

Very tiny sample size (24) combined with the huge proportion being illegal drug users and being homicidal/suicidal (67% and 25%) is such a large portion of your tiny sample that you can effectively pitch it out a window, imo.

 

[Flux]

You can abuse anything, there's more death and disease associated with fucking cheeseburgers, alcohol and smoking then all the steroid issues combined period!!!

 

[runnpray]

Dbol without a pct is extreme. What were his exact cycles other than that?

Arnolds genetics laugh at your shutdown and bloating. Dbol + Primo and Dbol + Deca Long, low (compared to now) dosage cycles. I don't think I have ever seen any confirmation of HGH usage during his prime (< '74) and I don't think he took test during that time as well. No HGH + Insulin stacks, No 5-6 grams of test per week, no T3, no Clen, etc. Simple and clean.

 

[phys_therapy]

I'll take a swing at it. Moderate-intensity exercise will increase both myocardium (heart muscle) size as well as cardiac chamber size. High-intensity also increases both myocardium size and cardiac chamber size. Lower-intensity tends to moreso affect the chamber size, whereas high-intensity tends to affect the myocardium thickness more. Whereas it may only take months to just a couple of years to notice increases in myocardium, it takes many years to increase cardiac chamber size. The myocardium is responsible for pumping the blood to the rest of the body, so it is the force. The theoretical amount of blood that can be "pumped" is dictated by the size of, pretty much, the left ventricle, but the other cardiac chambers (your circulatory system is a closed loop, and everything always moves in one direction). Combining the myocardium thickness and the chamber size and you come up with a series of ratios. The thicker the myocardium is, especially relative to the size of the ventricle (I'll focus on the ventricles), the more "stiff" or rigid it is, it's almost like comparing bending a magazine to a very thick paperback book (except the heart really resembles wringing out a rag, which is more mechanically efficient), but the thickness producing rigidity is still my point.

Anabolic steroid use:

Some studies have shown that athletes who have recently used, or especially currently use, anabolic steroids, have an increased left ventricular myocardium or left ventricular hypertrophy, similar pathology to congestive heart failure patients, but different causes, of course. The hypertrophy typically goes down (atrophies) over the course of 1-5 years of recreational training or even possibly lower intensity. Also, diagnosis of any pathology from imaging is limited, due to the fact that practically all competitive athletes have cardiac hypertrophy to varying degrees, murmurs are common among runners, other issues that cloud any pathology, so a deconditioning period commences, the myocardium atrophies, and anything pathological will remain after the 1-5 year period.

 

[Straightcross]

Bob Sapp is still alive and he makes Lesnar look small

 

[phys_therapy]

So older athletes who are retired, but may have or not used anabolic steroids for a while, or at least stopped before permanent damage occurred, will typically be alright, or at least that's the theory, as it's mostly theory.

 

[phys_therapy]

Bob Sapp is still alive and he makes Lesnar look small

That's not Bob Sapp.

 

[phys_therapy]

Heres one bit, but there's actually a lot of information to sift through, even from a basic search.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768197/

 

[phys_therapy]

Lol I'm not like pro- steroids or anything. I have taken them plenty but they aren't for everyone. People can have side effects if they aren't taken properly or have underlying medical conditions. People like Arnold, kimbo, Mark Kerr, ken shamrock were taking roids out the ass. And not just TRT and growth. Funky shit

Not to mention opiates and whatever else.

 

[djolegeorgee]

As a loooong time user, I can say this without any doubt, just say no kids.

 

[shaffmeister]

Arnolds genetics laugh at your shutdown and bloating. Dbol + Primo and Dbol + Deca Long, low (compared to now) dosage cycles. I don't think I have ever seen any confirmation of HGH usage during his prime (< '74) and I don't think he took test during that time as well. No HGH + Insulin stacks, No 5-6 grams of test per week, no T3, no Clen, etc. Simple and clean.

Dbol and primo/ Dbol and decca aren't some of the harshest compounds you can take? 5-6 grams of test per week? What the fuck.... Am I talking to Ronnie Coleman? 5-6 grams of test per week would kill someone. Unless your Dennis wolf or fucking jay cutler. Dumb response