confused

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by poreso, Aug 22, 2015.

  1. poreso

    poreso White Belt

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    Hello, looking for some advice to improve my routines.

    I don't talk to many people in the gym so looking for help here.

    my goal is to increase strength / endurance while sparring muy thai or doign ju jitsu.

    When I hit the gym I do this, in this order -

    1. Running - 2miles - 5k - After 6 months I'm consisently hitting 2 miles in 16:45 seconds. Next goal is 5k in under 26 min. My current 5k times are around 28:30. Slow I know..

    2. After running, depending on how much energy I have left that day, I hit weights.

    A. Chest / Tricep days - incline/flat bench, butterfly dumbbells, etc etc.

    B. Back / Bicep / Shoulder days - Pulls ups, curls, mil press, etc etc.

    there is no legs, because at this time I just got done running miles. if I hit legs (squats, hamstrings, etc) they will be sore for maybe up to a week - I won't be able to run while they're sore.

    Also, even on lazy weeks where I only gym 3 times, in my everyday life routine (outside gym) I walk minimum 2km - 3km p/day @ walking pace, around 4km - 5km p/hour.

    Also, I'm not like a pro fighter or anything, this is just a hobby but I take it seriously.

    For last 6 months I have given near everything I have to increase running times. I'm not seeing improvement I want while sparring. There is a guy whos 20lbs lighter than me and he can easily gas me sparring w/out gassing himself. It's easy for him. My main 2 questions are -

    1. Is it correct for me to focus this much on my running times? Are my distances/times correct? Other cardio excersizes to supplement? Or am I just naturally slow and nothign can be done?

    2. How can I put strong emphasis on cardio in my everyday workouts w/out sacrificing weight lifting? I don't want to stop, or reduce, my weightlifting. Advice for mixing the two, especially legs?

    Sorry for long post...
     
  2. vrain

    vrain Yellow Belt

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    1. Read the FAQs

    2. Look into Wendler 531 MMA template or Tactical Barbell Fighter template

    3. Read Joel Jamieson's Ultimate MMA Conditioning

    Put your weekly schedule together after going through the above
     
  3. colby25

    colby25 Brown Belt

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    I'll respond to your question concerning why you're still gassing while sparring. Fighting is a very sport specific movement...only way to get better and not gas is to spar more. I've seen people come in who are in great shape do marathons but when they spar or grapple they gas.

    It's because it's a foreign movement they're not use to it. They don't know when to relax, when to explode, the proper techniques to fight.

    I'll quote GSP for a bloody elbow interview he had a while back:

    Georges St. Pierre: "I don't believe in strength and conditioning. I never do strength and conditioning. I do not believe that running on a treadmill or doing I don't know what, so called machine. I don't believe that's going to help you have better cardio for a fight. I think everything in fighting is about efficiency."

    Joe Rogan: "So you don't do strength and conditioning as far as like hitting tires with sledgehammers?"

    GSP: "I never did it in my life. I remember I had a Muay Thai instructor from France, that I even brought on the reality show The Ultimate Fighter. The guy smoked, I don't know how many packs of cigarettes a day. He's always drinking alcohol. He's a real character, and he's completely out of shape, but when he spars with us in Muay Thai, he kicks everyone's ass. The reason is because he is more efficient than we are."

    "In the UFC, I do believe everyone is in shape. We're all athletes, you know... but the reason I believe a guy is more tired than another guy, is because one guy is more efficient than the other. One guy is able to bring the fight to where he is strongest, and the other guy to where he is out of his comfort zone."

    So you want to get better and not gas while sparring? Spar more.

    Now once you get in you're sparring I use to supplement it with long slow distance running. 5 miles usually, just jog and take your time. I saw the greatest overlap when I did that instead of concentrating on sprints.

    The reason why I think this worked well for me at the time was fighting is a lot of anaerobic work. It's pretty much a HIIT workout. So if outside class you're still doing HIIT style work such as sprints, you're practically neglecting your aerobic system.

    I found the long slow jogs as a way to SUPPLEMENT sparring was the best way to go for me personally. But everyone is different. Look into Joel Jamison he's got some good stuff out there.

    As far as strength training concerned...eh I'm no guru with that. The starting strength programs are good though.

    Here's the link to the interview with GSP: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/12/...rges-st-pierre-i-dont-believe-in-strength-and
     
  4. tehJameson

    tehJameson RANCH

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    Do you even lift *********
     
  5. poreso

    poreso White Belt

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    thanks for your answers friends. i guess its all about instincts.
     
  6. tenniswhiz

    tenniswhiz Steel Belt

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    So smoke a few packs of cigarettes a day and have at least 5 drinks a day.
    As long as you're efficient, you'll be fine!

    But seriously, I think GSP's idea is that if you spend enough time training a strenuous sport, that can be your S&C, provided you are satisfied with your current strength.
    And maybe GSP is correct, that guys like Overeem, are not fighting efficiently?

    But for normal guys trying to gain strength, a lifting program is probably a good idea.
    And finally, it all depends on your goals. If you're training to do a triathlon or half marathon, then you have to spend time doing that stuff.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2015
  7. Phlog

    Phlog Dad Belt

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    Yeah a large part, in fact the largest part of gassing is tension. If you are relaxed you can go much further than if you are tense. That's why sparring a lot helps, it get you used to it enough to relax.

    So when you spar, shake yourself out, relax and contract only when you need to.

    A Base level of fitness is needed. Everything else is mental. Most work is about making you feel comfortable under stress.
     
  8. Phlog

    Phlog Dad Belt

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    Also, squat.
     
  9. SuperiorHands

    SuperiorHands Purple Belt

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    Heavy compound lifts, okay now that's out of the way I'd say the conditioning carry over is also dependent on the conditioning activity. For instance I see moderate benefits from grappling endurance running, but much better if I'm rowing or using the versa climber where it's cardio with a larger strength component and working upper and lower simultaneously.
     
  10. Genghiz

    Genghiz Blue Belt

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    Yeah OP, don't do any S & C and you'll get as good as GSP. Forget the rest of the athletes in the world that do s&c.

    Let's get serious here. S&C isn't everything in fight, fight skills obviously trump that. But you might be weaker or less conditioned than your opponents or people you train with. You might also be stronger than a few. S&C exists to bring up any lagging weaknesses in your game, be it the 'S' or the 'C'. Some people start life with more or less than others. And believe me, all things being equal, strength and conditioning can make a huge difference. You just have to do it correctly.

    It's not intelligent to discount what all world class athletes do, and base your info off one interview done by GSP. Who knows what the context is, or maybe he is some sort of outlier. And I'm pretty sure I've seen him training like a m'fucker in his documentary.
     
  11. JauntyAngle

    JauntyAngle International man of mystery

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    As far as "strength" goes, there are videos where he is doing heavy dumbell stuff. Others where he is doing pullups. In another interview he talks about how great it is to do Olympic weightlifting.

    On conditioning, well, maybe he doesn't need to now. Or maybe he didn't need to before. And no doubt more of your sport is the best starting point. But the whole premise of Joel Jamieson's approach is that if you just keep doing what you are doing, there will be some weakness in your energy systems chain that will alway remain. And that you can fix that by doing very structured conditioning work, through specific conditioning exercises. And this is not just one uber-athlete talking about his own experience- this is probably the best MMMA S&C guy, talking about the approach he has used to get many top fighters to the point where they are known for their conditioning.
     
  12. JauntyAngle

    JauntyAngle International man of mystery

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    For some reason I am not going to tell you just to read the FAQ :)

    So, first of all... running is not a waste of time for improving conditioning for fighting, but you are doing it wrong. Running can build up your aerobic system which is a major contributor for anything that takes longer than 45-60 seconds. But it's best built by long, slow, steady work. You are almost certainly running too fast. Long/slow work should be just that. Aim to run 40 minutes+ at a really easy pace, you shouldn't be breathing hard or struggling at all. To progress, add distance and time but only up the pace when you can still do it without breathing hard or struggling. I think it takes about 4-6 months of running like that, working up to around 30km per week, to get a good starting level for your aerobic base. (Source: pulled out of my ass.)

    Once you have this aerobic base, you can also do other forms of conditioning, including anaerobic/more sports specific stuff. HIIT, all that sort of stuff. I wouldn't worry about that for now because you will get some of that from grappling.

    On the weights... do legs, dude. The point of strength training for an athlete is to increase the force you can generate when moving, and usually therefore also the power. In pretty much every sport, the lower body and core is involved. You are pushing people, running through people, trying not to be pulled... all that stuff. If your upper body is strong but your core and lower body is weak, you won't be able to make strong/powerful movements in your sport. Read the FAQ to find a basic strength routine. A more advanced athlete would almost never train like a powerlifter, but for noobs those are all fine.

    As for DOMS and achiness... you just need to cut your workload and then slowly increase it so you can get used to it. Just do what you can at a level that won't cause pain, or much pain. Next time do a tiny bit more. Next time a bit more after that. You'll be amazed at what you're able to do after a month or so. Don't sell yourself short.
     

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