Concepts vs techniques drilling vs practice

[thugpoet]

"
I feel that people have misunderstood a lot of what I have said in the past. I teach seminars now all over the world and a lot of my common feedback come from people who now realise what I meant, when I say “I don’t think people should drill”. Many people misunderstand me for saying “you can’t practice a technique”. This is not correct. I say you shouldn’t drill techniques, but you can practice them. I encourage the practice of techniques, especially at the start as it’s a good way of opening someone’s minds to the possibility of solutions.
But drilling and practice are two different things. Drilling is when one repeats a movement or technique, long after they are competent in the application of the technique. This creates muscles memory in the body (the ability to perform a movement on a sub-conscious level). Practice is when you obtain not only the ability to perform the technique, but more importantly the understanding of the technique. Not just how the technique works but why, when and what to be careful of when applying the technique. As soon as the student is competent in showing an adequate ability to not only perform, but understand the movement, he or she should be forced to integrate it into live situational sparring.
The live situational sparring is by far the most important element to learning a technique as it forces people to apply it in real time against an unwilling opponent, rather than a compliant one. This helps the student develop the timing for the technique (which is much more important than the application). The timing is one of the most over looked element in jiu jitsu.
The timing dictates whether or not the technique will work regardless of how well applied.
There is no singular technique in jiu jitsu that is fool proof. Every technique can be countered, and every counter countered. So it’s imperative that your timing is perfect! For if your opponent predicts your move, he or she can counter it, resulting in failure of the move.
But if your timing is right, your opponent won’t see it coming!
What is timing? Timing is deception. It’s having the ability to keep hidden your intentions. To steer your opponents attention elsewhere"


How do you all feel about the above statement? Makes sense or bullshit

 

[babycart]

BS

If you don't drill the technique (either striking or grappling), you will:

1. Not learn the technique properly as a beginner.
2. Not gain the fluid, non-telegraphic set-up/start of the technique.
3. Gradually lose the intricate details that make the technique work due to the patch job of strength or speed, which in turn hampers the passing on of knowledge from teacher to student.

Yes, going against an actively opposing party is important (sparring), yet to cancel drilling after 'graduation' is throwing out the baby together with the bathwater.

 

[SummerStriker]

The way he changes the definition of timing at the end is why people misunderstood him about drilling and practice. Lots of professions have their own jargon, and BJJ is no exception. Mount is jargon. Fifty-fifty is jargon. Pass-the-guard is jargon.

When people become experts in their field and are filled with pride because their field is artistic and has no quality control or peer review, it is easy to want to start making up your own jargon. Imagine you are in my stick fighting class and I say:

"Strikes from weapons-collide range are a form of trickery. Do not time your opponent--read him!" A certain number of the students will nod their heads and just wait for me to get on with it, but the ego-stroking students will go, "oh yes sensei, you are so right, how profound!"

So, then I think I am really onto something, and I go on with my professional life, making up definitions for words like timing, drilling, and practice, and repeat them to people who won't tell me that the emperor has no clothes because respect.

 

[yetanother]

3. Gradually lose the intricate details that make the technique work due to the patch job of strength or speed, which in turn hampers the passing on of knowledge from teacher to student.

Often when I haven't drilled something fairly complex for a long time I find that even if I still pull it of regularly I rely on the fly fixes and follow up recounters when a few details would have made it land a lot more cleanly.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Agree... he’s only saying you need to understand the technique before you start drilling a bazillion times trying to remember step by step what need to do....the drill

That’s kit dale talking there

 

[yetanother]

Agree... he’s only saying you need to understand the technique before you start drilling a bazillion times trying to remember step by step what need to do....the drill

That’s kit dale talking there

Kit Dale is anti drilling because he thinks it's boring and makes you predictable.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I don't know how to interpret what was said. That may just be the conversation going over my head, and my lack of comprehension may just be a reflection of me.

However, I subscribe to the thought that "Drillers make killers". That is how I view things.

 

[beat...people...up?]

Drills and positional sparring are both good. Positional sparring addresses the timing issue, and if you have competent drill partners they can also give you some reaction as you drill....

 

[tekkenfan]

theres a reason guys like LI atos guys ect do sow ell they drill like crazy the old bjj method was to teach 3/4 tecs for 45mins then roll that only gets you so far even with talent

 

[thugpoet]

I don't know how to interpret what was said. That may just be the conversation going over my head, and my lack of comprehension may just be a reflection of me.

However, I subscribe to the thought that "Drillers make killers". That is how I view things.

I tend to agree with you. Although I think that situational sparring is drilling.

In boxing I use one step, two step and then light sparring with stipulations ( jabs only for example)

It's all traianing. The question is what should take up the bulk of your time

 

[shunyata]

I both disagree and agree. Timing IS everything. But drilling is what allows us to apply techniques with minimal effort and maximum efficiency. To have a complex series of movements become one movement, even one breath.

Perfect practice makes perfect. People who've drilled a takedown 1000 times and apply it in rondori do so with much more success than those who've drilled it 20 times and are trying to apply it in rondori. Drilling and live training are both important. And the guy who's put in ten thousand reps and thousands of hours of live training is pretty likely to outperform our thousand rep guy in fighting to implement their will.

It's the nature of it.

 

[yetanother]

I tend to agree with you. Although I think that situational sparring is drilling.

In boxing I use one step, two step and then light sparring with stipulations ( jabs only for example)

It's all traianing. The question is what should take up the bulk of your time

I would say positional sparring is more important, but drills are super good for warming up. I hate light rolling because it gives you different reactions and teaches you to apply stuff light but drilling with the guy giving you proper (not bullshit half assed resistance like some low belt would think is a good idea) reactions so that you choose a technique is good.

 

[babycart]

I tend to agree with you. Although I think that situational sparring is drilling.

In boxing I use one step, two step and then light sparring with stipulations ( jabs only for example)

It's all traianing. The question is what should take up the bulk of your time

The quoted article in the OP has its own definition of drilling, which doesn't agree with your take. The point the article insists is that drilling won't hone your judgment about proper timing, which your example of situational sparring has, which in turn contradicts the article's definition of drilling.

As for me, drilling and sparring (which is referred to as 'practice' in he article) both have important usages that can't be missing if you want to be martially effective.

 

[thugpoet]

I would say positional sparring is more important, but drills are super good for warming up. I hate light rolling because it gives you different reactions and teaches you to apply stuff light but drilling with the guy giving you proper (not bullshit half assed resistance like some low belt would think is a good idea) reactions so that you choose a technique is good.

Idk if you look at the Mt, and some of the more successful Boxing programs like Cuba they all use drilling and light sparring. If you go hard you are often kicked out.

I know your first thought will be " but that's not Bjj" but learning is learning and no matter the sport they overall methodology of training should work across all sports.

What works with light sparring is you are punished for an incorrect reaction but you are not koed ( in boxing) your arm isn't ripped off in Bjj.

Lastly time under tension is real and with lighter sparring you are able to put in more thime because you are not beat up for training. That means more rounds per day and more sessions per week.

Just my 2 cents curse me out if you think I am full of Boo boo

 

[thugpoet]

The quoted article in the OP has its own definition of drilling, which doesn't agree with your take. The point the article insists is that drilling won't hone your judgment about proper timing, which your example of situational sparring has, which in turn contradicts the article's definition of drilling.

As for me, drilling and sparring (which is referred to as 'practice' in he article) both have important usages that can't be missing if you want to be martially effective.

I don't agree with your conclusion.

Drilling in his eyes is learning the steps to master the skill. I share that definition.

Situational sparring is learning how to apply that'that skill in a controlled manner. Again I share that definition.


I do think that it all falls under the workout umbrella and as such really shouldn't be held as this vs that. Ideally it's more which does my student need more of?

Are they lacking the details to pull off the move correctly ? Do they lack the timing to pull the move off? It comes down to focus and ensuring that the student is able to pull the move off correctly.

 

[yetanother]

Idk if you look at the Mt, and some of the more successful Boxing programs like Cuba they all use drilling and light sparring. If you go hard you are often kicked out.

I know your first thought will be " but that's not Bjj" but learning is learning and no matter the sport they overall methodology of training should work across all sports.

What works with light sparring is you are punished for an incorrect reaction but you are not koed ( in boxing) your arm isn't ripped off in Bjj.

Lastly time under tension is real and with lighter sparring you are able to put in more thime because you are not beat up for training. That means more rounds per day and more sessions per week.

Just my 2 cents curse me out if you think I am full of Boo boo

Striking sports are completely different because you get hurt a lot in hard sparring. In bjj you don't (you don't need to crank heel hooks hard just control the guy hard etc.).

Idk if you look at the Mt, and some of the more successful Boxing programs like Cuba they all use drilling and light sparring. If you go hard you are often kicked out.

I know your first thought will be " but that's not Bjj" but learning is learning and no matter the sport they overall methodology of training should work across all sports.

What works with light sparring is you are punished for an incorrect reaction but you are not koed ( in boxing) your arm isn't ripped off in Bjj.

Lastly time under tension is real and with lighter sparring you are able to put in more thime because you are not beat up for training. That means more rounds per day and more sessions per week.

Just my 2 cents curse me out if you think I am full of Boo boo

Going hard is a lot more destructive in striking. A lot of people can do tons of hard rolling. If you are properly warmed up which does not mean some crap warm up cargo culted from some low iq brazillian you get a lot less beat up. In a lot of techniques changing speeds is key. If you don't explode you will just learn them wrong.

 

[babycart]

I don't agree with your conclusion.

Drilling in his eyes is learning the steps to master the skill. I share that definition.

Situational sparring is learning how to apply that'that skill in a controlled manner. Again I share that definition.


I do think that it all falls under the workout umbrella and as such really shouldn't be held as this vs that. Ideally it's more which does my student need more of?

Are they lacking the details to pull off the move correctly ? Do they lack the timing to pull the move off? It comes down to focus and ensuring that the student is able to pull the move off correctly.

Well, you posted this earlier:

I tend to agree with you. Although I think that situational sparring is drilling.

Which in turn was clearly differentiated in the article.

"

But drilling and practice are two different things.

Drilling is when one repeats a movement or technique, long after they are competent in the application of the technique. This creates muscles memory in the body (the ability to perform a movement on a sub-conscious level).

Practice is when you obtain not only the ability to perform the technique, but more importantly the understanding of the technique. Not just how the technique works but why, when and what to be careful of when applying the technique. As soon as the student is competent in showing an adequate ability to not only perform, but understand the movement, he or she should be forced to integrate it into live situational sparring.

The live situational sparring is by far the most important element to learning a technique as it forces people to apply it in real time against an unwilling opponent, rather than a compliant one. This helps the student develop the timing for the technique (which is much more important than the application). The timing is one of the most over looked element in jiu jitsu.

The timing dictates whether or not the technique will work regardless of how well applied.

Here, he talks about when being able to perform the movement adequately one should then move on into sparring, which falls under the jurisdiction of 'practice,' which he has clearly differentiated before.

 

[Uchi Mata]

It really depends on the move. For dynamic, compound moves like shooting a double leg or transitioning from a knee slice to a long step, fluidity and coordination matter a lot. Rote drilling helps coordination and builds muscle memory. For something like cross collar choking someone from mount, rote drilling isn't very useful because it's a slow, step by step move where the really hard parts about pulling it off live are keeping balance and breaking through various defenses. For that kind of thing, you just need to do a ton of positional sparring. It's not one size fits all regardless of which move you're talking about.

 

[thugpoet]

Striking sports are completely different because you get hurt a lot in hard sparring. In bjj you don't (you don't need to crank heel hooks hard just control the guy hard etc.).

Going hard is a lot more destructive in striking. A lot of people can do tons of hard rolling. If you are properly warmed up which does not mean some crap warm up cargo culted from some low iq brazillian you get a lot less beat up. In a lot of techniques changing speeds is key. If you don't explode you will just learn them wrong.

I've had more injuries in Bjj then I've ever had in boxing. I don't like to use my personal experiences to prove a point but I'd like to think my experience isn't that uncommon

 

[yetanother]

I've had more injuries in Bjj then I've ever had in boxing. I don't like to use my personal experiences to prove a point but I'd like to think my experience isn't that uncommon

How experienced are you in BJJ? With most people not rolling seriously will be more dangerous because they will switch from half assing to going super hard. If you stay in proper position and put in effort when needed to remain in it it's safer.