Comprehensive Theory of Guard--Closed/Open

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by wildcard_seven, Apr 13, 2008.

  1. wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    Okay, so I watched the Functional Half Guard SBG instructional and did further research and that game went through the roof. It is truly the only guard I "understand" because its the only time I've ever had an instructor or instructional teach from the bare bones up, on how to play a guard. For me it's always been, today we learn "this move" or "that move", it's taken me a ways, but now I see the vast benefits of having a comprehensive game or theory.

    So, starting from the beginning: guard. Where should my hands be, what should I be trying to do? Give me something foundational like "the paw", or "get the underhook and stay on your side". Equivalent to the half guard basics (my best basis for comparison).

    Now, I mean the most basic guard, which I guess is closed, but there really is no such thing as closed, cause you have to open at some point. But I think you know what I mean. Gi instruction is good, though I'd be interested to hear a no gi version of this too.

    Lay it on me.
     
  2. Slithers Green Belt

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    step 1: break their posture when they are in your guard.
     
  3. wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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  4. Slithers Green Belt

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    best advice I can give is to 'fix what is bothering you.'

    If the stiff arm to the chest is preventing you from breaking their posture, then you want to either collapse the arm by putting your arm on the elbow pit and buckle their arm or swim underneath and do the same thing.

    If the arm/elbow to the thigh/knee is bothering you, then you need to attack that elbow or grip.

    good luck
     
  5. wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    Hmm...I'm sensing an overarching depression spread across all who've read this thread. It's too much, isn't? People don't discuss this because there are too many directions after "break them down." Isn't that true? ISN'T IT?!

    Maybe that's the dilemma....there is simply too much to do, no way to simplify....each man must make his own stormy trek through discovering the ridiculously open-ended closed/open guard...
     
  6. SFinclined Purple Belt

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  7. codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    i found the braulio estima instructional good, because he shows breaking posture, and show a move and then build on it with a sequence, one move building on the next building up a complete repetoire.
     
  8. FirstNobleTruth Blue Belt

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    I feel like its easier to provide a breakdown like this due to the nature of the half-guard described. For the most part, the intent with the SBG half-guard you've described is to sweep. To do this, you get underhook, keep from getting cross-faced, get deep under them, and then manipulate their balance to sweep them in some direction. The full guard is definitely much more diverse (not that half-guard can't be). Although controlling posture is certainly a fundamental, there's many different ways to go from there. Some people might like to work wrist control and a high guard and work for armbars, others might want to work on establishing an overhook and then look for omoplatas, triangles, etc. Others might want to let their opponent achieve some posture and then play more a sit-up guard and work for hip heist/kimura/guillotine. I love half-guard and full guard, but I think that full guard has more possibilities and as such is harder to provide a one-size-fits-all procedure.
     
  9. Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    I disagree.

    Of course their are a bunch of different paths you can take but their are fundamental steps that everyone should know. I think the lack of explanation comes from habit. An "Im gonna learn you the same way my coach learned me" kind of thing. Most of the high level BJJ guys learned in a type of "buffet" system. Learn a random move, see if you like it, fit it into your game. Every once in a while they would learn a move that would enduce "a moment of clarity" and their game would sky rocket. After that they would continue acquiring new techniques waiting for the right move or explanation to take them to the next level.

    I think that system is very inefficient and I think the instructional department is really lacking because no one really focuses on a natural opponent reaction. The only moves I ever seen broken down are the armbar and the triangle choke, and they are explained in a way that assume your opponent has absolutely no aquired or natural defense.

    That is why I love the SBG guys. The halfguard instructional was made in a way that taught principles. Instead of sweeps and subs they focused on explaining what you dont want to happen, that way you have a base, and as you learn you can add things to your game in an organized way. They seem to have a very systematic way of training and teaching, and I am surprised I dont hear more from them. If they ever put out a closed gym instructional I will snatch it up.

    The Gracie Academy in Torrence also seems to teach very solid fundamentals. Their gracie insider stuff is really good. I am hoping they put out more stuff covering attacking a defensive opponent from full guard.
     
  10. BeRGLeZ Ramenbowl

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    Hahhaah that made me laugh..:icon_chee

    Generally your submissions and sweeps from guard will require you to put your opponent off balance. Breaking posture allows you to establish control so that he in return does not obtain control and break your guard. Pulling down on his head with your hands breaks that 'pyramid of strength', that being his posture. While broken you can go for submissions or preferably work a setup or control - such as shrimping to the side with one overhook and grabbing the other wrist to put your foot on his corresponding bicep.. lots of things you can do from there; kimura, omaplata, triangle..
     
  11. wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    true, that is a nice sequence.
     
  12. wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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  13. FirstNobleTruth Blue Belt

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    I definitely agree with you about the current system of learning. I prefer a more systematic approach as well, but it is difficult to come by. I find this is true especially in regards to the full guard. The only system I have seen broken down step by step is Rubber Guard, which I appreciate due to its innovation and approach, but currently lack the flexibility and means (recovering from knee surgery) to try it out for myself and form my own opinion. I do like the way their halfguard instructional was presented and I have it bookmarked and try to implement their techniques with some of the more Bravo-esque halfguard work (another thing I think he did well). In particular, the paw to stop the crossface was a huge help to my game. I am interested in checking out Beneville's books, but a lack of cash and my mostly no-gi focus has stopped me from doing that. Do they follow a more systematic approach? Thank you all.
     
  14. FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    If you break their posture, you can always get a high cross collar grip and get them worried about the choke. Their are 6 or 7 different collar and lapel chokes you can do from the guard when their base is broken. Once they are worried about the choke, you can go for scissor sweep, and the variation where you kick the knee out, and go back to the choke if they defend.

    Also, if you have a cross collar grip, and grab their sleeve, you can transition to high guard pretty easily where there are more chokes, armbars, triangles, you name it.

    Pick something you want to get better at and work them whenever you are in guard. If you want to get top position more often, work sweeps. If you want a submission, work on triangle, armbar, choke, and omoplata setups.
     
  15. BenWS Orange Belt

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    I'll give you a good starting point.

    In closed guard generally the person on top will have one of three postures.

    1) both hands on the belt

    2) both hands high on the chest

    3) uneven hands, one hand low, one hand high on your chest.


    Learn to break those postures and their variations.
     

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