Communism to Fascism to Trump: Graphing political ideology and the futility of visualization

[tonni]

Would be awesome if far right took over the entire world. Or nationalist communism. Or religious far right. Imagine the crying done by liberals with no god or soul if Trump was reelected or abolished term limits and became supreme leader.

 

[Seaside]

Haha, no, I was not meaning to conform the chart to the Political Compass quiz's questions and outputs (which pulls very noticeably to the libertarian left). I was just going off of personal knowledge. Like I said, it's kind of interesting and fun to me. It can be somewhat difficult to consider all the policy features, especially since there is a noticeable flip along the X-axis. For that reason, placing neoliberals (Clinton) and mid-century conservatives (Eisenhower) is difficult.



Extremely. Under Marxist doctrine the state is strictly limited and made to wither away to a stateless society. However, the occurrence of Leninism (bureaucratic seizure of the state apparatus in a periphery economy as a way to expedite outside revolution toward the world economic epicenter) kind of laid a blueprint contrary to traditional Marxist development and laid way for, as you know, quite non-libertarian systems in under-developed countries.

But I placed Marxism closer to the center on that spectrum to account for a certain level of organizational (as opposed to state) coercion (workers seizing production, etc.).

if i could give likes now i would like this post. But i do agree with your graph you draw at top page. Ultimately these are quite simple but other things get into issues of where society goes. For example tito was as called today nationalist left wing. Far different than the left wing you have in the modern western world or anglosphere. Nazism was équality´and ´´´socialism´´for those privilleged enough to be considered human and citizens but was shit for those who were not.

 

[TheGreatA]

I would put Trump a little more to the left. Also, Reagan in practise was probably more authoritarian.

Trump made his mark in politics by telling people that he'd build a wall, but Reagan made his mark by having a bunch of cops show up and break up student protests, heavy-handedly, by "any means necessary".



Trump talks a big game about Antifa and violence from the left, but he has not taken any steps to actually prevent those people from saying whatever it is that they want to say.

That was not really the case with Reagan, and many other old school American presidents. It's just that our standards have changed, along with the times.

Relative to the times, Trump might seem more authoritarian and right-wing than the old school presidents, but in reality, he is not.

Also Nazis were very "socialist" economically and "collectivist" in ideology. It's just that they saw themselves as a third alternative who were also authoritarian, militarist, nationalist and non-inclusive of groups that they didn't deem worthy of the social welfare which they generously spread to their "own".

You could easily hear a Bernie Sanders giving this speech:



Just with a meaning probably more broad than blond, blue-eyed Germans.

 

[NoDak]

Deleto Dorito

 

[TheGreatA]

NSDAP Economics is interesting stuff.

For all the card tricks and smoke 'n mirrors involved, there was still a good deal of legitimacy to the 'Economic Miracle' with that not so sneaky little caveat of being built for and requiring WAR to maintain. Hitler didn't do a whole lot beyond enacting the policies devised for him by Hjalmar Schacht and Robert Ley and they were able to mobilize the existing talent and capability of the labor force to turn it into a legitimate super power within six years. Talent being that this nation was the de facto world leader in Science & Technology, and they took deep root in that culture to achieve their objectives. The Max Planck Gesellschaft is GOAT to this very day.

They actually did promote and implement placing the interests of the country as a whole before those of municipalities, a reduction of class distinction in both a monetary and humanitarian sense, full employment, free education, massive public works programs, improved social services and family welfare, pro-environmental legislation, emphasis on health and physical fitness, animal rights, etc.

Downside, all unions were abolished and nationalized into the sole DAF. It was harsh as shit, touted "for the greater good" and all but mandatory lest you find yourself escorted to an actual concentration camp with other undesirables. Other programs initiated like Kraft durch Freude were designed to make the ordinary German worker at least feel like the government was making an effort on their behalf.

It also didn't hurt that the Treaty of Versailles was tossed into the fire pit with no fucks given even though reparation requirements had already been partially frozen in 1932 due to the intensified desperation of the Depression after Heinrich Brüning's budget cuts. Aside from a brief period in the mid-1920s there really wasn't much of a time for prosperity because the Depression and subsequent drying up of loans from the US was preceded and bookended by the Great Inflation, which was quite specific to Germany in the aftermath of World Warzzzffdjdjfjfktkgkfkf... yea yea yea just fucking around tho.

I'd say that the one category where the Nazis still manage to make the Allies and their post-war world look like shit, was the environmentalism and animal protections championed by that movement. Hitler even boasted that he would turn Germany completely independent of butchering animals for meat, turning the population fully vegetarian, which is ironic considering that he had no problems butchering a large number of humans.

While that largely had to do with Hitler's anti-humanist perspective of the world, perhaps some means of "moral compensation" for the obvious crimes against humanity his regime committed, the argument could be made that the West has failed to deliver on that front, and deserves to take a long hard look at themselves when even an Adolf Hitler had a more progressive outlook on things, than we have for the past 50 or so years.

If the world truly does go to shit because of pollution, inability to sustain resources and ceaseless human expansion, we'd let Hitler have the last laugh.

 

[Seaside]

WOW its largely true. Authoritarian i am!

NSDAP Economics is interesting stuff.

For all the card tricks and smoke 'n mirrors involved, there was still a good deal of legitimacy to the 'Economic Miracle' with that not so sneaky little caveat of being built for and requiring WAR to maintain. Hitler didn't do a whole lot beyond enacting the policies devised for him by Hjalmar Schacht and Robert Ley and they were able to mobilize the existing talent and capability of the labor force to turn it into a legitimate super power within six years. Talent being that this nation was the de facto world leader in Science & Technology, and they took deep root in that culture to achieve their objectives. The Max Planck Gesellschaft is GOAT to this very day.

They actually did promote and implement placing the interests of the country as a whole before those of municipalities, a reduction of class distinction in both a monetary and humanitarian sense, full employment, free education, massive public works programs, improved social services and family welfare, pro-environmental legislation, emphasis on health and physical fitness, animal rights, etc.

Downside, all unions were abolished and nationalized into the sole DAF. It was harsh as shit, touted "for the greater good" and all but mandatory lest you find yourself escorted to an actual concentration camp with other undesirables. Other programs initiated like Kraft durch Freude were designed to make the ordinary German worker at least feel like the government was making an effort on their behalf.

It also didn't hurt that the Treaty of Versailles was tossed into the fire pit with no fucks given even though reparation requirements had already been partially frozen in 1932 due to the intensified desperation of the Depression after Heinrich Brüning's budget cuts. Aside from a brief period in the mid-1920s there really wasn't much of a time for prosperity because the Depression and subsequent drying up of loans from the US was preceded and bookended by the Great Inflation, which was quite specific to Germany in the aftermath of World Warzzzffdjdjfjfktkgkfkf... yea yea yea just fucking around tho.

I do wish he gave @Trotsky examples of right wing libertarians. Because i cannot think of leader like that.

I'd say that the one category where the Nazis still manage to make the Allies and their post-war world look like shit, was the environmentalism and animal protections championed by that movement. Hitler even boasted that he would turn Germany completely independent of butchering animals for meat, turning the population fully vegetarian, which is ironic considering that he had no problems butchering a large number of humans.

While that largely had to do with Hitler's anti-humanist perspective of the world, perhaps some means of "moral compensation" for the obvious crimes against humanity his regime committed, the argument could be made that the West has failed to deliver on that front, and deserves to take a long hard look at themselves when even an Adolf Hitler had a more progressive outlook on things, than we have for the past 50 or so years.

If the world truly does go to shit because of pollution, inability to sustain resources and ceaseless human expansion, we'd let Hitler have the last laugh.

his perspective is not that odd from his writings. Very darwinist in social way. It was like belief that human evolution will reach its peak when the great war of mankind happens and the dominant race achieves full power and rids world of úndesirables´´. He viewed all animals and other life on this planet as having already gone through that process. Not an unusual thinking by those types.

 

[NoDak]

Who is this?

 

[TheGreatA]

his perspective is not that odd from his writings. Very darwinist in social way. It was like belief that human evolution will reach its peak when the great war of mankind happens and the dominant race achieves full power and rids world of úndesirables´´. He viewed all animals and other life on this planet as having already gone through that process. Not an unusual thinking by those types.

That was part of his belief but I think the most significant psychological difference among Nazis, compared to the average social Darwinist, is that they believed in human degeneration rather than its evolution.

Believing in evolution allows one to remain optimistic, and somewhat neutered in action, but believing in human degeneration, in such a collective way, causes almost a mass psychosis of sorts to happen, enabling the population to take great efforts in order to reverse the process.

"Nazi occult" had a lot to do with belief in the idea that ancient "Aryan" origins were divine, and that they had been degenerated by the process of living on Earth and mixing amongst other races for a long period of time.

The Nazi religion, if one had ever been imposed, would have been like a "reverse Christianity" of sorts, in the sense that humanity's end destination would've been seen as hell, rather than the kingdom of heaven. And the only way to reverse that process, was to destroy the human elements which had "paved" this road to "hell", in order to transcend humanity, and re-join the German population with the "gods".

 

[Seaside]

That was part of his belief but I think the most significant psychological difference among Nazis, compared to the average social Darwinist, is that they believed in human degeneration rather than its evolution.

Believing in evolution allows one to remain optimistic, and somewhat neutered in action, but believing in human degeneration, in such a collective way, causes almost a mass psychosis of sorts to happen, enabling the population to take great efforts in order to reverse the process.

"Nazi occult" had a lot to do with belief in the idea that ancient "Aryan" origins were divine, and that they had been degenerated by the process of living on Earth and mixing amongst other races for a long period of time.

The Nazi religion, if one had ever been imposed, would have been like a "reverse Christianity" of sorts, in the sense that humanity's end destination would've been seen as hell, rather than the kingdom of heaven. And the only way to reverse that process, was to destroy the human elements which had "paved" this road to "hell", in order to transcend humanity.

I agree about the occult stuff and their theoretical religion. But there are two ways you can go with it, you can go the superhuman way ¨nietzches´ ubermensch and or in todays possibility with technology the possibility of transhumanism, and gene engineering. It is possible to be optimistic and social darwinist.

 

[TheGreatA]

I agree about the occult stuff and their theoretical religion. But there are two ways you can go with it, you can go the superhuman way ¨nietzches´ ubermensch and or in todays possibility with technology the possibility of transhumanism, and gene engineering. It is possible to be optimistic and social darwinist.

Everyone who believes in human evolution is ultimately optimistic. Bearing in mind, that our modern biology and evolution theory itself is not quite that optimistic, as we fully understand the possibility of genetic degeneration and going extinct due to a failure to adapt to circumstances. The Dodo bird, being one of such examples (not a good idea for a bird to evolve to not have wings).

The Nazis were not optimistic because they were mainly veterans of WW1 who had lost everything that they had believed in. They saw themselves as men on the decline, and to be honest, considering the state of affairs in Germany at the time, it's not as if their beliefs were unfounded.

Their world-view started to revolve around the idea of decline and degeneration, and their world-view was a manifestation of what takes place when a man, truly, in all his mind, spirit and body, believes that he is destined to be headed towards destruction. He becomes the harbinger of this destruction, by himself. The dead-eyed, gray, seemingly emotionless SS troops, were a manifestation of pure "vengeance" in human form.

There's a reason why they still hold a psychological sense of terror over many people, even though they were hardly unique as mass murderers in history. Their hatred for their victims was dulled, stoic, based on an ideal, not merely an emotional reaction to circumstances.

 

[xcvbn]

Seems about right

 

[NoDak]

Seems about right

As far as what?

 

[xcvbn]

As far as what?

Big Dick Bern

 

[NoDak]

Big Dick Bern

Oh, right. I was kinda confused because I posted my own chart results and it's virtually identical in placement on first glance. I see that the post (quoted by Seaside #26) has since been deleted for: "image with the slur '' in it". I had to pound the table and laugh out loud at that one. It's great to see the Mod team is on top of eradicating the virulent homophobia on here though.

 

[tonni]

Who is this?

Some bald Brazilian facist

 

[M3t4tr0n]

Would be awesome if far right took over the entire world. Or nationalist communism. Or religious far right. Imagine the crying done by liberals with no god or soul if Trump was reelected or abolished term limits and became supreme leader.

Imagine if we all got fucked in the ass and then the sun exploded! As long as librulz tearz!

 

[InternetHero]

Imagine if we all got fucked in althe ss and then the exploded! As long as librulz tearz!

Butthurt libs > endless tyranny.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

Butthurt libs > endless tyranny.

The simplification of the ideology of Trumpism.

 

[InternetHero]

I agree about the occult stuff and their theoretical religion. But there are two ways you can go with it, you can go the superhuman way ¨nietzches´ ubermensch and or in todays possibility with technology the possibility of transhumanism, and gene engineering. It is possible to be optimistic and social darwinist.

It is kind of a crazed optimism where one says: We can turn people into anything we want, and give them anything we want with machines!

I for one think that an endless parade of sexbots, Brave New World style chemicals, and mind altering gene splicing and implants is probably far more reason for terror and abuse than being upbeat and hopeful.

Not that history keeps teaching us that over, and over, and over again... but by all means, let us invent our way out of human misery, I just hope we can trust the inventors to do the right thing... this time... this time...

 

[InternetHero]

The simplification of the ideology of Trumpism.

I think that's being a bit hard on Trump, he is more of a third rate despot who has no idea what he wants except to be glorified as an illustrious orange demigod.

Then he will die, and life will move on.

What we will be left I do not necessarily disagree with, that we are ready to endlessly polish the rod of obedient rulers who promise to punish our enemies, and refuse to see that our enemies are just those with other opinions.

Trump is a major symptom of this, but as one said a long time ago "He is a disease of the skin" while this plague of hatred is a disease of the bones.