Columbus day is now indigenous peoples day

[EL CORINTHIAN]

Confederate statues are an overt symbol of White power. They were erected as a big old Fcuk You to African Americans. They were erected years after the war ended, with many being erected in the 20th century, during the time of Jim Crow.

Southern states erected many of the monuments to Confederate leaders and soldiers that are now the focus of national protests long after the civil war, at the height of the Jim Crow system of racial segregation and repression and later during years of civil rights protest and reform.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/13/jefferson-davis-statue-removal-kentucky-jim-crow

Confederate statues are no different to statues and symbols honoring Nazi leaders.

You didn't answer the question though did you?

So im gathering so far that if a statue represents racism (im not going to speak to that) it's proper to remove it but Alexander over there whos responsible for possibly hundreds of thousands of deaths and who colonized the known world that's honkey dorey because well it wasn't racist.

Am i understanding you correctly?

Im just trying to understand how you choose what should go and what shouldn't

 

[Gregolian]

Well there you go, you have discovered an issue to champion to your local government.

I’m part of local government. Sorta, I’m a peon in public employment.

They don’t care.

 

[terrapin]

Im not the one making a case for the removal of statues as some sort of symbolic victory. You are. The onus is on you to propose a guideline for what constitutes something positively symbolic in removing a certain jerk over another jerk.

For instance. Im Greek. No matter how disputed he is with Macedonians, Alexander the great is a National hero to us. In Toronto we have a statue in the heart of Greek town dedicated to him. I promise you that Alexander is the source of much more blood shed and rape than say........Robert E Lee buy orders of magnitude.

What say you? Should we remove Alexander the greats statue?
Edit: The bust in question. It's more like a shrine than anything.

have you got an indigenous population being exposed to that statue that is complaining about it? in the states we do have that so that's why it is a thing here.

 

[bobgeese]

Whatever it takes for a day off.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

Alexander the Great never stepped foot on this continent. If you want to have conversations about him in the places he conquered, have at it. What a weird thing for you to propose.

It's not at all the same as a traitor to this nation being memorialized in statues when the descendents of the people they fought to enslave have to live around these memorials.

I mean, if Alexander had fought to enslave blacks in America, you'd likely be making the argument in reverse, bringing up Genghis Khan or something........

Ok so im right. It's geography for you that matters.

What about Abraham Lincoln in Portland. Do you agree with this being knocked over and potentially removed?

 

[MicroBrew]

You didn't answer the question though did you?

So im gathering so far that if a statue represents racism (im not going to speak to that) it's proper to remove it but Alexander over there whos responsible for possibly hundreds of thousands of deaths and who colonized the known world that's honkey dorey because well it wasn't racist.

Am i understanding you correctly?

Im just trying to understand how you choose what should go and what shouldn't

I explained it in the last post, the difference is there is NO continuation of Alexander's power structure to modern times so it does not continue to rule over a demographic it conquered during Alexander's time.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

have you got an indigenous population being exposed to that statue that is complaining about it? in the states we do have that so that's why it is a thing here.

The indigenous population isn't composed of innocent lambs that didn't uphold slavery and slaughter their own and even white people. So basically because another group of people complained you are going to choose to remove these statues?

You guys are all over the place with this. One person is claiming its due to racism, another due to geography and no you with "but the natives".

This is why it's funny to ask how you guys are deriving what to remove and what not to remove. Im just not hearing anything concrete.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Ok so im right. It's geography for you that matters.

What about Abraham Lincoln in Portland. Do you agree with this being knocked over and potentially removed?

"Ok so im right. It's geography for you that matters."

This is such a simple point, and it's astounding you can't grasp it. Not geography, but relevance to people's directly affected. Not too hard.

And on the Lincoln statue, its retarded as fuck, especially since, despite being a white supremacist (like much of the North), he fought against the very people who shouldn't have statues memorializing them in nations they were traitors to.

 

[nostradumbass]

If this change isn't going to help, why are you righties soo annoyed by it since you obvously think it is of no consequence.

How did removing 3rd Reich symbols after WW2 help Germans? How did destroying Soviet Era statues of Communist dictators in the former USSR nations help people ?

Nazi concentration camps and Gulag prisons are still there. Russia still has like 6,000 streets named after Lenin. There's a goddamn gigantic Lenin statue in Seattle right now, and a Che Guevarra statue in central park.

One of the biggest financial/insurance firms(Allianz) that the Juventus stadium is named after were major nazi supporters and the company director was appointed economics minister for the third reich.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

I explained it in the last post, the difference is there is NO continuation of Alexander's power structure to modern times so it does not continue to rule over a demographic it conquered during Alexander's time.

Ok i'll accept that as an asnwer. I don't agree with it and I think it's extremely flimsy but sure.

 

[terrapin]

The indigenous population isn't composed of innocent lambs that didn't uphold slavery and slaughter their own and even white people. So basically because another group of people complained you are going to choose to remove these statues?

You guys are all over the place with this. One person is claiming its due to racism, another due to geography and no you with "but the natives".

This is why it's funny to ask how you guys are deriving what to remove and what not to remove. Im just not hearing anything concrete.

ill ask again because you seem to have missed it.

do you have an indigenous population being exposed to that monument and who it offends? if not then i guess that's up to you guys to decide if it stays up. over here we do have such a population and so its a problem.



also i don't know who "you guys" are refereing to.

 

[Bargey]

It didn't, but the funny thing is that Columbus didn't even set foot in North America. He just went around the Caribbean and had little to do with English colonists wanting to move to what is now Northeast USA and starting what is now the USA, more than a hundred years later.

Personally I find him to be an interesting character, he was a skillful navigator, convinced the Spanish to fund his expedition, managed to find land. He was, according to his enemies, a brutal ruler, of both natives and European settlers, but the Spanish monarchs pardoned him and he went for one last trip.
He wasn't particularly brutal for the standards of the era, look at what happened to people who opposed European rulers at Europe or Natives who opposed the Aztecs.

In the big picture, his main contribution was to encourage more Europeans to explore the Americas, otherwise, maybe, we would have the Ottomans settling here. More likely the Spaniards would move there anyhow. The fate of the natives would be pretty much the same, except they would be muslim.

True. The Aztecs and Comanches and how they treated the natives make anything the Spanish or any colonial power did, look like child’s play.

It’s so lucky for the world that the socially and politically advanced Europeans were the ones to take over the world and not some of the other brutal powers that existed in the world in the 15th-19th centuries.

 

[MicroBrew]

Nazi concentration camps and Gulag prisons are still there. Russia still has like 6,000 streets named after Lenin.

One of the biggest financial/insurance firms that the Juventus stadium is named after were major nazi supporters and the company director was appointed economics minister for the third reich.

The Nazi camps are not operational, they are there as a reminder of the horrors and for people to see the sufferent that went on. The camps aren't there to glorify the Nazis.

 

[terrapin]

The Nazi camps are not operational, they are there as a reminder of the horrors and for people to see the sufferent that went on. The camps aren't there to glorify the Nazis.

maybe not to you but...........

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

"Ok so im right. It's geography for you that matters."

This is such a simple point, and it's astounding you can't grasp it. Not geography, but relevance to people's directly affected. Not too hard.

And on the Lincoln statue, its retarded as fuck, especially since, despite being a white supremacist (like much of the North), he fought against the very people who shouldn't have statues memorializing them in nations they were traitors to.

It's not my fault you aren't terribly good at explaining yourself. At the same time excuse me for not buying the argument that a warlord who colonized the known world, who was responsible for countless deaths is some how kosher In the liberal anus of Toronto yet Robert E Lee is Satan.

I don't actually give a fuck about Robert E Lee for the record nor am I defending him. What I'm getting at is why it's a stupid trend to get into the removal of statues on the basis of some unknown moral compass and judging historical figures with out modern outlook. Conservatives clamor on about the erasure of history which undoubtedly is a huge exaggeration but now we have dorks in Portland knocking down Abraham.

 

[Bargey]

ill ask again because you seem to have missed it.

do you have an indigenous population being exposed to that monument and who it offends? if not then i guess that's up to you guys to decide if it stays up. over here we do have such a population and so its a problem.



also i don't know who "you guys" are refereing to.

If people are offended by monuments and statues then there are 3 choices:
1. Ignore
2. Educate
3. Capitulate

The first two are acceptable options depending on the context of their identity and the nature of how offended they are

The third never is.

 

[MicroBrew]

Ok i'll accept that as an asnwer. I don't agree with it and I think it's extremely flimsy but sure.

It's not flimsy because the contentious issue with Columbus statues and Confederate statues is that these characters symbolize White supremacy and the oppression of indegenous Americans and Blacks. White power, Blacks and Indegenous Americans are here with us, and race is a very big contentious issue. You can't point to a spot on the map and say some contemporary group is still being ruled over by the direct descendants of the power structure behind Alexander.

 

[terrapin]

If people are offended by monuments and statues then there are 3 choices:
1. Ignore
2. Educate
3. Capitulate

The first two are acceptable options depending on the context of their identity and the nature of their offence.

The third never is.

D none of the above.

i think protest and outrage that sways public opinion in a democracy and causes these to be removed and placed in museums that can place the historical figure in proper context (including why there were moved) is the best option.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

ill ask again because you seem to have missed it.

do you have an indigenous population being exposed to that monument and who it offends? if not then i guess that's up to you guys to decide if it stays up. over here we do have such a population and so its a problem.



also i don't know who "you guys" are refereing to.

And like i mentioned before you injected yourself into the equation. Who gives a fuck what they think? Natives upheld slavery in the south all the same. Are they being held to the same standard?

What if a Macedonian walked past the statue and said "You know what...fuck that statue im going to try and get it removed." Do you think it should be removed because he demanded it or because he isn't "iNdIgEnOuS" it should be disregarded.

Im trying to understand how your leftist brains work.

 

[hillelslovak87]

It's not my fault you aren't terribly good at explaining yourself. At the same time excuse me for not buying the argument that a warlord who colonized the known world, who was responsible for countless deaths is some how kosher In the liberal anus of Toronto yet Robert E Lee is Satan.

I don't actually give a fuck about Robert E Lee for the record nor am I defending him. What I'm getting at is why it's a stupid trend to get into the removal of statues on the basis of some unknown moral compass and judging historical figures with out modern outlook. Conservatives clamor on about the erasure of history which undoubtedly is a huge exaggeration but now we have dorks in Portland knocking down Abraham.

Alexander never set foot on this continent. I don't get how you can't understand that people living here, especially blacks and native americans, would feel no emnity towards him, but towards men like Columbus, or especially people like Robert E. Lee, who were traitors to this nation explicitly, and specifically fought for the right to enslave a racial group in this country as a matter of government policy.

Do you see the difference there?

"basis of some unknown moral compass"

That's the thing, you're wholly wrong about that. The precise reason statues of confederates are being attacked is because they were traitors to this nation, and those statues were erected decades after the war, not to celebrate these traitors, but to keep blacks in line during the nadir, then the Crowe era.

The racist traitors shouldn't have statues in America. Alexander the Great? Doesn't have a fucking thing to do with America, since he died millenniums before the continent was discovered by Europeans.

Fuck...........