I have no problem openly discussing anything you wish. My reply is long since most of the readers here have no actual knowledge of Islam. The un-referenced quote you provided is, practically speaking, the one and only piece of evidence those that proclaim Islam demands the death of apostates will use. It is a reference from the primary hadith source book, Bukhari. Seems pretty cut and dried and hardly an argument to be made against it unless we throw out the reference all together. I will make the oft-repeated claim of context and provide what I believe is good explanation to prove the opposite of the reference in question implies.
First, the Quran is the primary source of Islam. Anything that contradicts the Quran is not Islam. Hadith, such as the one that states, "Kill whoever changes his religion." are either false, lacking context or misinterpreted. Before I get into the Quran I will say that I don't believe the hadith is false but has to be put back into context and viewed in light of the Quran. What does the Quran say about apostates; The Quran is clear that Islam recognizes the right of freedom of conscience and freedom of belief and that as far as one's religious belief is concerned one is answerable to God alone. No man has the right to punish another for his choice of belief. There is absolutely no compulsion whatsoever in Islam and no punishment of any kind permitted in the Holy Quran for apostasy.
"It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve." [Quran 18:29]
"Surely We have revealed to you the Book with the truth for all mankind; so whoever follows the right way, it is for his own soul and whoever errs, he errs only to its detriment; and you are not a custodian over them." [Quran 39:41]
"And if thy Lord had enforced His Will, surely, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wilt you then force men to become believers?" [Quran 10:99]
"And if God had enforced HIS will, they would not have set up gods with HIM. And WE have not made thee a keeper over them, nor art thou over them a guardian." [Quran 6:107]
"Admonish, therefore, for thou art but an admonisher; Thou art not appointed a keeper over them. But whoever turns away and disbelieves, God will punish him with the greatest punishment. Unto US, surely, is their return. Then, surely, it is for US to call them to account." [Quran 88:22-26]
The punishment for the apostate is in Gods hands. There is no punishment man is told to enforce. Mans faith will be judged by God, not by other men.
In order to bring the hadith in line with the Quran we have to talk about periods of warfare. Fighting, warfare and bloodshed are a way of life for manking and the Quran sets down some laws about how Muslims are expected to behave during such trials. The primary passage of the Quran about
warfare reads:
"Permission to take up arms is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged and God, indeed, has power to help them. - Those who have been driven out from heir homes unjustly, only because they said, 'Our Lord is God.' And if God had not repelled some people by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is oft remembered, would surely have been destroyed. And God will, surely, help him who helps HIM. God is, indeed, Powerful, Mighty - Those who, if WE establish them in the earth, will observe prayer and pay the charity and enjoin good and forbid evil..." [Quran 22:39-41]
The hadith in question should be read in light of the following verse:
"They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become alike. Take not, therefore, friends from among them, until they emigrate in the way of God. And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and take no friend nor helper from among them; Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if God had so pleased, HE could have given them power against you, then they would have surely fought you. So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then God has allowed you no way of aggression against them. " [Quran 4:89-90]
Muslims who reject Islam but do not fight against the Muslims can not be touched. Any argument in favor of executing those who reject Islam is nullified by the above passage. The passage makes reference to apostates who are not active in fighting against the Muslims and God states that He, "has allowed no way of aggression against them." It is not the act of leaving Islam that makes one liable for execution but the act of turning traitor to support those at war with the Muslims. This is commonly the law of the land in every nation. That is all the hadith refers to and nothing more.
In addition the hadith is found twice in Bukhari, in two 'books' dealing with apostates. They are called, "The Book of those who fight (against the Muslims) from among the unbelievers and the apostates"' and "The Book of calling to repentance of the enemies and the apostates and fighting with them". Bukhari appears to have described apostates as fighters or associates them with the enemies of Islam and the only refers to those who apostate and join the enemy in fighting Islam. i.e.. Traitors during a war. This is the only interpretation of the hadith that fits perfectly with the Quran, in my opinion.
While the Quran preaches freedom of consiense the hadith make reference only to traitors during a time of war.
To put the ball into your court I would ask that if God ordered the death of apostates in the Bible would it be fair for Bible believers to complain if such a command were given in the Quran (which it is most definitley not)?
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." Deut 13:6-10
Thank you for the length. It is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to open up when I asked. I didn't think to reference as I knew the quote was from one of the Hadiths which I believed were apart of your holy texts. But as you explained it, they are not taken as holy and divine but rather additions to the Quran and can be cast out when conflicting? Thus much of the dissonance amongst the sects of Islam could come from the agreement/disagreement of which Hadiths were to be followed and which not?
So is this case, the discarding of the religion involved not just leaving but leaving in a way that caused them to essentially turn traitor and fight against? Ok. I can understand that explanation and the differing aspects of the Hadiths needing to be in agreement with the Quran to be valid I will keep in mind for the future.
As for the Deuteronomy passage, It is certainly fair to ask back about that one and I can take a stab at it although I am not the most knowledgeable of the law section of the old testament. I have friends who can blow me out of the water, whereas I spend most of my time reading the bible in the Gospels or Paul's letters.
Deuteronomy was written something like 3500 years ago by Moses or by one of his aides on Moses' behalf. It is very prevalent to this discussion on Sharia, as it functioned as the laws for the theological society at the time of writing for the Jews. It came about after Moses first came down with the 10 commandments straight from God. Following these 10 simple rules would have led to an ideal God-like society.
It took the tribes of Israel almost no time at all to lose their faith in God to provide and break the 10 commandments, the most prevalent of ways in going immediately back to their worshipping of Idols in the Golden Calf story of Exodus. Deuteronomy came about as a much more detailed and stricter set of laws than the 10 commandments since man wasn't capable of following God in the way He intended (the prevalent theme of the old testament and why God had to send his Son Jesus down). Moses knew that once he was no longer around, it would be the death of Israel and their inability to follow God so he spelled out exactly what to do and some harsh punishments to keep them in line should they be tempted to falter in order to ensure the survival of the nation.
So, writings about the civil laws such as the one in Deut 13 came about. In this specific one, it is indeed harsh for a few reasons. Idolarity was a HUGE problem for the early Israelites. They had been captives under other nations whose idol worshipping had been ingrained in them for much time and generations even just through culture blending. These were evil pagan things with orgies and human sacrifice (remember, 3500 years ago) and it was crucial for Israel to not slip back to even incorporating parts of that into Jewish culture and life. Similarly to your explanation, it wasn't just turning away it was the bringing in and encouraging of evil, Satanic things that directly went against God which was also government. Thus, the harsh punishment of death for anyone who attempted to lead others to participate into those things. At the time, Israel was on the brink of destruction before even really getting started, or continuing down the path God had laid out for them.
Where it talks about brother or family, it does not say to act on your own and kill those who worship idols, but rather that as the ones closest to those turning to idols; you will most likely be the ones hearing of them trying to turn others to idols and should witness against them. A witness against someone should then be the first to act in their punishment. This is to help ensure against false testimony as a person
should be hesitant to actually kill someone they know to be innocent. Although of course, this wouldn't account for evil gits.
As for the reasoning for why this no longer applies to us, logically it is because the threat of Paganism is no longer an existential threat to the followers of God. The pharasees and saudicees didn't quite get this, and that is why almost all of Jesus' interactions with them in the Gospels involves him calling them out on their following of the rules but not the desires of the God they pray to.
Mathew 23:
"Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else.
4 They pile heavy burdens on people’s shoulders and won’t lift a finger to help. 5 Everything they do is just to show off in front of others. They even make a big show of wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms, and they wear big tasselsa]'>[
a] for everyone to see. 6 They love the best seats at banquets and the front seats in the meeting places. 7 And when they are in the market, they like to have people greet them as their teachers."
It gets long. Jesus spends an entire chapter scathing them but here are a few of my favorites.
"23 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24 You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.
27 You Pharisees and teachers are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You’re like tombs that have been whitewashed. On the outside they are beautiful, but inside they are full of bones and filth. 28 That’s what you are like. Outside you look good, but inside you are evil and only pretend to be good."
Jesus goes on to teach that the ways of the Lord are in taking care of the poor, serving God before self, non-violence and peace even to enemies; and that piddling actions are not what God cares about and rather where your Heart is. If the heart is pure and God centered, then the words and actions will reflect it as evidence. Not cover it up.
Exactly where the laws of the old testament become moot after Jesus' sacrificed himself to pay for all our sins, and that we can be apart of that repayment by believing he did so and accepting him fully in our lives and heart as our savior, is explained later on in Paul's letters. Paul was the one chosen by God to spread the gospel to the gentiles (aka, non-Jews so myself and most of us). He teaches in Galations 3:19 that we first needed the law to know the depth of our own sin, and how it is impossible for any person to make up for their sin through simple good works and that they need to accept the sacrifice of Christ.
"Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people."
So he says here that the law such as found in Deuteronomy was only designed to last until the sacrifice good enough to cover us all came. There is a huge, other discussion for why the law hasn't been completely abolished but rather the penalties for their transgressions paid but that one is beyond me and I still need to work on my understanding of it rather than just parroting it. The overly simplified one, which is a bit wrong but easier to explain to a new believer until their faith is more mature, is simply that Christ paid for all our sins and we no longer need a physical atonement (such as sacrificing a goat or to be put to death for breaking) if we've accepted Him and ask for the Father's forgiveness. By our belief, we will strive to do good on God's behalf without the threat of punishment or the strict laws. His teachings of what Good are are spelled out in the Gospels the clearest, although we can still learn from the Old Testament in ways.
