Closing distance to be able to throw punches in muay thai.

Lol im Thai just to clarify that. sure i know what luk mai and mea mai techniques are.
but what has this to do with this thread? That are just random techniques from Muay Boran. But we are talking about the ringsport of Muay thai.

Stupidest statement of the year. The Luk and Mae Mai techniques are the foundation of sports Muay Thai that Thai boxers learn the very first day they enter the gym.:rolleyes:

If you have been learning Muay Thai for more than a month, get a refund kid.
 
Stupidest statement of the year. The Luk and Mae Mai techniques are the foundation of sports Muay Thai that Thai boxers learn the very first day they enter the gym.:rolleyes:

If you have been learning Muay Thai for more than a month, get a refund kid.

whats wrong with you ? Not even in Thailand you learn look mai and mea Mai techniques the first day. Dont watch to much Human Weapon. Sure there are incoperated in the training at some point but i wouldnt consider it the basics. especially look mai techniques.
 
Muay boran is the ancestor of modern muay thai. It is not the "foundation" any longer. Most muay boran techniques have either been stripped or removed altogether in favor of faster and more ring friendly techniques.

I was under the impression from my coaches that there are thai's who never learn muay boran but practice the ring sport.
 
This is a loaded question.

In business strategy, one of the things that's done during the planning phase for changing a business's strategic direction in an existing market is something called a "swot" analysis. It's where a company analyzes its strengths, weakenesses, opportunities, and threats. As a fighter, creating a strategy should be no different. You need to know all those same factors in order to create a successful plan of action.

Strengths:

What I can gather from your post is that you have a inclination towards punches. I assume by that you mean that you have a set of mechanically sound punches. What are your other strengths? Are you good at blocking/covering? Do you have KO power? Are you exceptionally fast?

Weaknesses:



Being good at punching/boxing/fighting with your hands, means you'd have the footwork to go along with it and that translates to being able to control the space and positioning as well as the timing to know when to punch. Your quoted statement above implies otherwise. So I would say that might just be your set of weaknesses.

Opportunities:

You have several opportunities in your strategic direction. You can increase your knowledge of Muay Thai to learn how to take advantage of the typical nak muay's plan of attack and learn about holes in their defense. You can increase your fighting attributes to become stronger, faster, more reactive, or more resilient to punishment. You can learn to kick better so that you're stronger in that range of fighting. Lot's of options...

Threats

In the context of fighting...fighting a muay thai fighter is complicated. You have 8 limbs to deal with, and so many different varieties and combinations of attacks that it would be impossible to know them all. The gatekeeper for a nak muay are their kicks, as you have experienced. Those come at all elevations, but typically from ground up angle if it's their version of the round kick, or they may come straight forward from roughly waist level. They might come from a high angle downwards, or from a spinning maneuver at your side.

----------------------

Based on this rough SWOT analysis, I would say that your best plan of action would be to learn more about Muay Thai's general offensive strategy and counter attacking methods. Make note of how a typical nak muay would move, and then create some tactics to circumvent those standard reactions to allow a higher probability for your attacks to land. Combine that with learning better footwork and timing, and you likely will have a good recipe for success.

But, that's just my assumed analysis. You know yourself better than any of us do. Using this format of thought process...what answers would you come up with?

Wow, that was great. Thank you for taking the time to type that up.
For my strengths I would say that I mix up strikes well with my hands and I'm also able to land kicks quite easily.
You're right with the weakness assessment. I'm good at moving, cutting off the opponent, and moving back. However I typically move back to avoid getting hit, but by doing so I can't counter that often. This results in my lack of hands thrown. I only throw hands if they come close enough to me because normally I'm too far away or busy dealing with their kicks to try and come in with punches.

I'm really good on the pads, but I can't seem to translate that into actually heavy sparring. I don't telegraph, I have power, speed, I am always covered when I attack, but I often find myself either using just kicks, or getting kicked when trying to go use my hands.
Thanks for the reply.
 
How about you leave this gym.

Any sparring class where those who advanced are beating you up is going to be not a good gym. Any good fighter will go very easy on beginners. Maybe you are trying to go all out, on them. The general rule for Thai boxing sparring is going at 50%.

There are various situations where someone who is training for the fight will go in the ring and other fighters will come at them 100% one after the other.

No amount of advice off an Internet forum on 'techniques to use' is going to beat someone who is better than you.

However I typically move back to avoid getting hit, but by doing so I can't counter that often. This results in my lack of hands thrown. I only throw hands if they come close enough to me because normally I'm too far away or busy dealing with their kicks to try and come in with punches.

Ignore the crap given about SWOT analysis, I will give you one piece of advice on the footwork with Muay Thai. You can pivot to the left or right off your front foot, creating an angle. I would not try this just yet. Practice just stepping back off your front foot, so your swapping stances to avoid the kicks.
 
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Ts I was Kickboxing at a gym for four years, I unfortunately didn't spar the veterans as much as I could. I trained at a mates who had a handful of amateur fights, he would sit back and snap at my leg when i moved anywhere near him. As I fight relaxed it made it hard to deal with. Here's how I adjusted, hope it helps.

Get as close to outside his range at first.
Bounce on the feet a bit and feign moving in.
Push kick is great to move a waiting opponent. I dropped him on the concrete with that.
Sometimes you gotta use some adrenaline to get inside.
Feint stepping in.
Wait for him to move or attack.
Is he sweeping or kicking hard?
Change your stance between back leg heavy to front leg or reverse.
Angle.
Bullrush him.
Or catch his push kick and ankle lock him. Lol.
 
I only throw hands if they come close enough to me because normally I'm too far away or busy dealing with their kicks to try and come in with punches.

Ok...here's something we can work with. So then we can use the same basic method to close the distance as I like to do for clinch. Get the guy to come after you with kicks...when he does step outside the threat envelope 2-3 times. On the next, time the kick and use your footwork to immediately attack with your hands. Another option to this is just time it to catch it and then counter punch as stay in that range. You can also cover on the kicking attack and absorb it and wait or him to move in with his own punches...then counter punch those.

I'm really good on the pads, but I can't seem to translate that into actually heavy sparring. I don't telegraph, I have power, speed, I am always covered when I attack, but I often find myself either using just kicks, or getting kicked when trying to go use my hands.
Thanks for the reply.

Interesting. Last fella I worked with at the gym said that too when I met him. I havent worked with him since because of his schedule but we plan doing some sparring. I'll probably be able to give you some parallel ideas when I work with him because he's got very good striking ability on the pads.
 
How about you leave this gym.

Any sparring class where those who advanced are beating you up is going to be not a good gym. Any good fighter will go very easy on beginners. Maybe you are trying to go all out, on them. The general rule for Thai boxing sparring is going at 50%.

There are various situations where someone who is training for the fight will go in the ring and other fighters will come at them 100% one after the other.

No amount of advice off an Internet forum on 'techniques to use' is going to beat someone who is better than you.



Ignore the crap given about SWOT analysis, I will give you one piece of advice on the footwork with Muay Thai. You can pivot to the left or right off your front foot, creating an angle. I would not try this just yet. Practice just stepping back off your front foot, so your swapping stances to avoid the kicks.

I'm not a beginner, I'm actually in the advanced class. I just haven't had that much practical use for it all. Like I said before, I have good technique and can deal with kicks but I find myself not being able to throw hands.

Ts I was Kickboxing at a gym for four years, I unfortunately didn't spar the veterans as much as I could. I trained at a mates who had a handful of amateur fights, he would sit back and snap at my leg when i moved anywhere near him. As I fight relaxed it made it hard to deal with. Here's how I adjusted, hope it helps.

Get as close to outside his range at first.
Bounce on the feet a bit and feign moving in.
Push kick is great to move a waiting opponent. I dropped him on the concrete with that.
Sometimes you gotta use some adrenaline to get inside.
Feint stepping in.
Wait for him to move or attack.
Is he sweeping or kicking hard?
Change your stance between back leg heavy to front leg or reverse.
Angle.
Bullrush him.
Or catch his push kick and ankle lock him. Lol.
I've tried doing a few of those things and found the most success with bull rushing but I tend to get hit a few more times than I would like. I can't seem to throw properly. I either can't get in any punches or I bullrush and get a combo of punches off.

Ok...here's something we can work with. So then we can use the same basic method to close the distance as I like to do for clinch. Get the guy to come after you with kicks...when he does step outside the threat envelope 2-3 times. On the next, time the kick and use your footwork to immediately attack with your hands. Another option to this is just time it to catch it and then counter punch as stay in that range. You can also cover on the kicking attack and absorb it and wait or him to move in with his own punches...then counter punch those.



Interesting. Last fella I worked with at the gym said that too when I met him. I havent worked with him since because of his schedule but we plan doing some sparring. I'll probably be able to give you some parallel ideas when I work with him because he's got very good striking ability on the pads.
I'd be very much interested in knowing what you recommend to him once you do work with him. I've got it down to an instant response as a kick comes to my body is that I reduce it and catch it. Most of the kicks that were troubling me were leg kicks. I would keep checking them, but I just couldn't get near them to throw anything in return.
 
MGG,

If there's any chance you can get some iphone footage or something, that always helps. In my past I literally NEVER had camera's around. Today it's easy to have a least iphone footage. I have a gopro now but it really sucks in low light situations. That's why everyone is seeing footage from me now. I'm learning to use the movie maker on my mac and I've got some camera resources now. So it helps tremendously with discussing martial arts and trying to help one another through the internet medium.

But I'll for sure get back to this thread, and if the guys don't mind being filmed I'll try and do that too. Maybe I'll get a nicer camera for xmas that I can put on a tripod.
 
Muay boran is the ancestor of modern muay thai. It is not the "foundation" any longer. Most muay boran techniques have either been stripped or removed altogether in favor of faster and more ring friendly techniques.

I was under the impression from my coaches that there are thai's who never learn muay boran but practice the ring sport.

Mae Mai and Luk Mai are the basics of sports Muay Thai not Muay Boran (which is not taught to fighters as it is a now a lost art and most fighters consider it a waste of time).

Mae and Luk Mai moves are the foundation of Muay Thai.

Muay Thai in the US must really suck. No wonder most of the Farangs I have met in Thailand told me they learnt all their MT there even though they had years of experience back home, they looked like it is their first month learning MT.

Here's a tip. Since you guys like watching youtube of Thai fighters so much, look at the way they move, attack and counter (semi circles, zig zach from Salab Fan Pla, Maun Yan Lak, Wiroon Hok Klab, Hak Kho Erawan...) and then look at your Mae and Luk Mai.

Come to SE Asia and train under a real Thai trainer. There is also a Sidyotong in Boston, do some training there, they will teach you real Muay Thai. :rolleyes:

Train in Singapore if you want. Plenty of good gyms here in Singapore. Yodsanan and the Sidyotongs are here in Evolve and Stable. Bia is in Onyx I trained under him for some time. Currently training under Saming ex Sasiprapa trainer at Singlanthong.
 
Muay Boran isn't a style, it's a blanket term for the many styles that, along with western boxing, eventually evolved into Muay Thai. Mae Mai and Luk Mai are not the basics of Muay Thai, unless you think Thai gyms are starting the curriculum by teaching their young fighters body elbows and side kicks. You know, techniques you almost never see in ring Muay Thai.
 
This is probably just a case of semantics.

I consider MMLM to be "old muay thai" and as such I use the term muay boran as an umbrella term for anything that's not the modern iteration of the sport. Yes...the techniques of modern muay thai are descended from Muay Boran and specifically MMLM. But you will find that going into many THAI gyms that you will not be learning the major or minor techniques in the beginning, if you learn them at all. Some gyms in Thailand still teach it, because it's absolutely relevant to understanding the significance of what you're doing. Then again some gyms in Thailand also teach straight western boxing on specified days, a FEW of them still teach some subset of muay boran too.

This guy probably thinks that because his gym taught him MMLM in the beginning that it's the way all gyms in Thailand work...but that's simply not the case as far as I know. Perhaps the guys that have trained there can shed light on the subject since they have first hand experience. I have never trained in Thailand...but both of my kru's were from there and that's where my information comes from.

I personally learned MMLM a long time ago, but it wasn't the basis of all my subsequent MT development. I looked at it more from a cultural standpoint to learn more about the traditional aspects of what I was doing. Today I consider what is happening in the ring to be a shade of MMLM and MB.
 
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I'm not a beginner, I'm actually in the advanced class. I just haven't had that much practical use for it all. Like I said before, I have good technique and can deal with kicks but I find myself not being able to throw hands.


OK, I''l rephrase, you are inexperienced when it comes to sparring.

If you want to 'close the distance' in Thai Boxing you need to pivot to your left off your back foot if you are orthodox fighting another orthordox stance and try throwing out the jab when you are at an angle off your sparring partner.

You can try doing this but like I've said before if your opponent is much better than you, they are going to be very difficult to hit. Just train at a good gym.
 
Muay Boran isn't a style, it's a blanket term for the many styles that, along with western boxing, eventually evolved into Muay Thai. Mae Mai and Luk Mai are not the basics of Muay Thai, unless you think Thai gyms are starting the curriculum by teaching their young fighters body elbows and side kicks. You know, techniques you almost never see in ring Muay Thai.

What MT do they teach in the US? Kickboxing?

Of course you learn your Kum Chuhng, Mahd, Sawk, Khao, Teep, Dteh, techniques etc first. But the Mae Mai and Luk Mais are the fundamental techiques of MT(some moves are not used in the ring but it is the absolute basics to know them).

What do you guys learn for movements and counterattacks there then? Where do all the movements come from? Made up on the spot? Kickboxing?

Have you guys ever done a semi circle move to the left/right? Basic movements like horse trotting (Mah Yawng), tiger stalking (Seu Yang), etc?

My advice is to get your ass to the Sidyotong in Boston. The American guy who runs the place is under Khru Toy of Sidyotong and they should (I think) teach you the basics of MT properly.

MT is the US truly sucks if non of you even know what the mae and luk mai are. You don't have to know the thai names but you should at least be familiar with them them as basic movements/combinations in your classes.

How can they teach Muay Thai without its backbone Mae and Luk Mai? Might as well teach kickboxing. :eek::eek::icon_neut
 
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This is probably just a case of semantics.

I consider MMLM to be "old muay thai" and as such I use the term muay boran as an umbrella term for anything that's not the modern iteration of the sport. Yes...the techniques of modern muay thai are descended from Muay Boran and specifically MMLM. But you will find that going into many THAI gyms that you will not be learning the major or minor techniques in the beginning, if you learn them at all. Some gyms in Thailand still teach it, because it's absolutely relevant to understanding the significance of what you're doing. Then again some gyms in Thailand also teach straight western boxing on specified days, a FEW of them still teach some subset of muay boran too.

This guy probably thinks that because his gym taught him MMLM in the beginning that it's the way all gyms in Thailand work...but that's simply not the case as far as I know. Perhaps the guys that have trained there can shed light on the subject since they have first hand experience. I have never trained in Thailand...but both of my kru's were from there and that's where my information comes from.

I personally learned MMLM a long time ago, but it wasn't the basis of all my subsequent MT development. I looked at it more from a cultural standpoint to learn more about the traditional aspects of what I was doing. Today I consider what is happening in the ring to be a shade of MMLM and MB.

Okay buddy, your American 'khrus' probably went to Thailand, took some pictures, put it on a wall and opened a gym in the USA to grab money off people like you.:icon_conf

Sorry but that is the truth. There are only a handful of farangs who are qualified to teach MT...think JWP, Liam, Giorgio, etc.

Even in Thailand, many gyms just want to take your money and screw you over. You need to know where to train, and which are the good teachers. A good fighter may not make a good teacher.
 
Okay buddy, your American 'khrus' probably went to Thailand, took some pictures, put it on a wall and opened a gym in the USA to grab money off people like you.:icon_conf

Sorry but that is the truth. There are only a handful of farangs who are qualified to teach MT...think JWP, Liam, Giorgio, etc.

Even in Thailand, many gyms just want to take your money and screw you over. You need to know where to train, and which are the good teachers. A good fighter may not make a good teacher.

enlighten me how some random mixed togehter counter techniques from mae mai are considert basics in Muay Thai? the 15 Mae Mai and 15 Look Mai techniques are just random techniques without real connection taken from Muay Boran. some used in the ring some not. why teach Jarake Fad Hang in Mae Mai before Erawan Suey Nga in Look Mai? Both are counter to punches.

I talked to a german student of Ajarn Amnat Pooksrisuk and even he thinks calling Mae mai and Look Mai the basics of muay thai is bullshit because:

1. These 30 techniques have no connection
2. are taken out of context

Im NOT saying you should not teach these techniques, but they are not the foundation or fundamentals of Muay thai or Muay Boran.


Even in the "good" gyms in thailand you dont learn mea mai techniques at first day.
 
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Okay buddy, your American 'khrus' probably went to Thailand, took some pictures, put it on a wall and opened a gym in the USA to grab money off people like you.:icon_conf

Sorry but that is the truth. There are only a handful of farangs who are qualified to teach MT...think JWP, Liam, Giorgio, etc.

Even in Thailand, many gyms just want to take your money and screw you over. You need to know where to train, and which are the good teachers. A good fighter may not make a good teacher.

Except that they're both Thai's from Thailand, and I never paid any of them money. I agree that you have to know where to train, but if you think learning MMLM is the sole criterion for determining the validity and effectiveness of what you're learning than you're a little delusional. You judge the gym by the fighters they produce and the quality of their ability to transfer skills. Though I shouldn't have to tell you that. At this point though, I doubt you have done anything but read shit off the internet by the way you're acting.

No one is saying that the movements in Modern Muay Thai aren't derived from older techniques...but the fact is that the various systems of Muay Boran are where the MMLM came from, and those techniques were chosen to provide a core for muay thai.

But again, in modern day, yes--even in Thailand, you're not going to see all the guys practicing MMLM all day. They're going to learn basic stepping, they're going to learn basic punching, and basic kicking. The footwork is going to be more subtle and not as pronounced. The coaches that teach techniques may not stress the origin of the technique or if it came from MMLM or not, because it may or may not have.

For example, I may teach someone to step out to the outside of a punch and counter punch or kick. Yes SALAB FUN PLA teaches you to step out and deflect with the forearms and counter as well...but it's not exclusive to MMLM or MT or any other art for that matter. It's a basic common tactic of side stepping a straight attack. Modern day MT teaches to parry and punch, to use a single forearm deflection and counter punch, to slip and punch, to step out and punch, to step out and kick, to step out and knee, to step out and elbow. Could we attribute that all to SALAB FUN PLA? I suppose you could even without the use of the forearms to deflect because you're still keeping out of the punches line of attack by stepping out. Generally I don't do that...because I can teach the technique from a modern point of view.

But by your omission, "real muay thai" can only be classified as those things in the MMLM. I guess the varied clinching techniques aren't Muay Thai. Nor are the boxing techniques that currently exists within modern sport muay thai that have been assimilated over the years. Then again you think that the only Thai's that did well in boxing ONLY box. So it's not surprising that you feel that way.
 
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