Clinton College Proposal

[Mr Mojo Lane]

I have no idea why our government hasn't figured out the education thing because all through history you see rich people trying to get poor people educated so the poor people could become rich to.

 

[CableandThanos]

You can help pay for schools, or you can help pay to support them with social services, prisons/jails, etc. It is in your own best interest to increase education rates.



I'm not sure that this is true, and if it is, it doesn't really matter. Do the wealthier schools still end up with more funding, and/or a better quality of education?



Well your one example doesn't do much for me. It doesn't change my position on school funding, and I'm not going to say this one example of yours means that all schools in shitty areas are nice and filled with rejects.


If these numbers are accurate:



Source

That school has more than double the drop out rate of the national average of poor children, something is fishy.



Assuming this is true, then it means this problem needs to be addressed, not just accepted and swept under the rug.[/QUOTE]


How do you address people not giving a shit? It is not against the law to be a shitty parent and not give a fuck. It is not against the law to not make your kids do their homework. It is not against the law to go to the club or be out with your friends instead of at home with your children. Also what about the single mom that has to work 2 jobs and doesn't have time to watch her children.

If Little Johnny doesn't give a shit, you think he is gonna give a shit if his school magically gets 5 million more dollars?

Even if you want to help the parents that are trying, how do you get people to not pop out babies at a young age and put them behind the 8 ball to start? Well I guess you sink more money into job training, etc but then what about money for school that you wanted?

See everyone thinks the solution has to come from society or money, when the problem is from the actual people parents. How do you correct/punish parents behavior?

Everyone wants to spout off societys part of the solution but when it comes time to hold people accountable on their end.....CRICKETS

 

[panamaican]

Why has no one (democrat especially--- repubs have school choice I guess) addressed this and tried to change it? Even in all black communities? I live in Memphis (or a little city right on the outside of it) and have never heard our mayor ever mention a change in the way the school system is funded. I'm 35 and have been around for a ton of mayors/city council people and this has never come up.

If everyone knows that this plan sucks, then why doesn't anyone try to change it?

First, not everyone knows the plan sucks. Most people don't even know that we ever did it any differently nor do they know why it was changed.

Second, if you live in a more expensive neighborhood, especially if you moved there for the school, why would you want a system that eliminates that advantage? It's not a dislike for people in other neighborhoods but it would require sacrificing your child's advantage for the "greater good" and very few people are going to do that.

Third, people are going to balk at anything that might negatively impact their property values. That's normal too.

It's one of those problems where the poor don't know and the better off have zero incentive to change it. So, it's an issue that mostly gets ignored.

 

[My Spot]

Would it also cover trade schools? I'm too lazy to read through the thread.

 

[ripskater]

Would it also cover trade schools? I'm too lazy to read through the thread.

I doubt it. That is one area where you could go to college and actually get a job doing what you were there to learn.

 

[Mr Mojo Lane]

If Little Johnny doesn't give a shit, you think he is gonna give a shit if his school magically gets 5 million more dollars?

Well, if one of these school districts gives me a job, I will try to figure out why Johnny doesn't give a shit. It will put my Psychology and future Philosophy degree to work. Since I care about the kids so much, I will do it for only 3 million a year.

 

[My Spot]

I doubt it. That is one area where you could go to college and actually get a job doing what you were there to learn.

That's a problem because college just isn't for everyone but our culture deems it a failure if you don't go instead of learning a trade.

 

[CableandThanos]

I answered that for someone else. Because no one wants to give up their tax loophole without getting something in return.

but we will have a better educated populace!!!

that is the trade off isn't it?

 

[kpt018]

but we will have a better educated populace!!!

that is the trade off isn't it?

Of course, there are trade offs for nearly everything in life.

In this case, some loopholes would be closed and some would have caps, so higher earners would pay a little more in tax. The benefits here are that the poor and middle class have access to educations that they didn't have or they are not saddled with debt to get that education, which has huge benefits.

You can think about tax, spending or really every business transaction in this light. Every transaction has at least two sides.

 

[kpt018]

That's a problem because college just isn't for everyone but our culture deems it a failure if you don't go instead of learning a trade.

Right. Not everyone is cut out for or even wants to go to college and people can make a good living as a skilled tradesman.

 

[CableandThanos]

First, not everyone knows the plan sucks. Most people don't even know that we ever did it any differently nor do they know why it was changed.

Second, if you live in a more expensive neighborhood, especially if you moved there for the school, why would you want a system that eliminates that advantage? It's not a dislike for people in other neighborhoods but it would require sacrificing your child's advantage for the "greater good" and very few people are going to do that.

Third, people are going to balk at anything that might negatively impact their property values. That's normal too.

It's one of those problems where the poor don't know and the better off have zero incentive to change it. So, it's an issue that mostly gets ignored.

it just seems like it would pass with flying colors in Memphis. A black politician telling a majority poor/lower income black populace, that the schools will be better funded by the people who perpetrated white flight. There would not be enough white, upper income blacks/latinos to vote it down.

 

[panamaican]

but we will have a better educated populace!!!

that is the trade off isn't it?

It would be. But the question he asked was why we don't close the loopholes if we know they're a problem. We don't close them because people want something in exchange for what they're giving up. Politicians present these programs and then hope that people care enough to also fund them through closing loopholes.

Politicians are usually wrong because taking away my tax loophole so that someone down the street might benefit has never been a very strong argument.

 

[panamaican]

it just seems like it would pass with flying colors in Memphis. A black politician telling a majority poor/lower income black populace, that the schools will be better funded by the people who perpetrated white flight. There would not be enough white, upper income blacks/latinos to vote it down.

Maybe not to vote it down...but who's funding his campaign that gets him elected in the first place? Not those poor people in bad schools who can't afford to move somewhere better in the first place.

Where does he send his kids to school? Does this help his local school where his kids actually attend?

Also, this is a state level issue. So the politician in Memphis might get elected on the subject but it's not going to pass unless the politicians from the other parts of the state are in agreement. I don't know if the county that Memphis is well-to-do or not. But I'd imagine that there are wealthier surrounding counties and they have no interest in seeing part of how they funded their schools ending up funding Memphis' schools.

It's pure self-interest. It's completely understandable, even if it ultimately hurts the state overall.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Using the results metric, we also became the worlds pre-eminent industrial power with laissez-faire capitalism.

Also, the rest of the most developed nations are much harsher on illegal immigration and abortion than we are, so maybe we should copy that?

LOL.

Would that be the laissez-faire capitalism where the government funded basically the entire R&D for the high-tech industry? Or the laissez-faire that imposed heavy tariffs on Japanese electronics to keep them from competing against American ones.

And as for emulating others, it's a pretty simple idea: you copy the good, discard the bad. In my opinion, xenophobia and nativism is bad, free higher education is good.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

We also benefitted from massive wars in Europe destroying their infrastructure 2x in less than 40 years.

Yeah, and somehow these European countries, with their economies destroyed 2x in less than 40 years, are still able to afford college to their citizens.

But the richest country in the history of the world will fall apart if it does the same. Hell, it'll fall apart if it does what it itself did before 1980.

 

[7437]

Great suggestions, especially making college enrollment more difficult, which would increase the value of the degrees. If it were only the smartest 20% going to college, I'd have no problem paying for their tuition.

But you know we can't have nice things because that would result in "disparate impact" :icon_neut

That would be a really stupid idea. The goal is to have a more educated workforce, not less.

 

[Gandhi]

It's not just that you need to keep the kids of the streets, you do need to change the make up of who lives in the neighborhood.

I repeat the following point as often as possible because it's consistently overlooked - probably because it's complex:

When school funding is tied to the property taxes, you are creating a death spiral for low income neighborhoods. Schools in more expensive neighborhoods (I'm not talking million dollar homes, just "more" vs. "less" expensive) get more funding. This makes the neighborhoods more attractive to people with kids because they want better funded schools. Over time, people with kids move from less expensive neighborhoods to more expensive neighborhoods to attend the better funded schools.

If this is where the relationship ended, it would be bad but not awful. Unfortunately, it doesn't end there.

As more people try to move to better funded neighborhoods, it increases the demand for those neighborhood homes. This leads to an increase in property values and thus more funding for those schools. Great!! But what happens to the less expensive neighborhoods?

As people move out away from lower funded schools, the supply of houses increases and the demand from buyers decreases. This leads to a decrease in property values and, consequently, less funding for the schools. The lower funding makes the schools less attractive and so the demand for homes near those schools decreases as well. This is what leads to the death spiral in those neighborhoods. Lower school funding -> less housing demand -> lower property values -> less property tax revenue -> lower school funding.

After a few decades of this cycle, those neighborhoods are completely gutted of any families that might improve the neighborhood or the school. At this point, throwing money at the schools is pointless. You've removed the most important parts of the neighborhood, the quality, driven people, and all you have left are the dregs. We've concentrated poverty and undereducated people around these schools and then we think that throwing money at the schools will change the character of the people. It doesn't work that way.

The problem is that no one wants to shift funding back to a state or national scale. So the cycle will continue. And this isn't just an urban problem. It's a rural and suburban problem too.

Claps and nods head.Gif

The getto-ization ("sp?") of society through the property taxes / education spiral - well said

 

[Misfit23]

Lol! I was thinking the same thing. I would love to go get my MBA but I am sure I make way too much to qualify for anything (I have to assume the free tuition is means tested and confined to Associates and Bachelors degrees).

Since I am a CPA there isn't much benefit, if any, in me paying for and spending the time to get the degree. But if it were cheaper it is something I would personally love to do.

It took me seven years to finally decide to head back to school. I was adamant on not going back for more education because the cost was too high. That way of thinking just never sat right with me.

 

[PrettyRicky]

I really don't get the push for "free" college. I think it primarily sounds good to people who made a bad decision and took out student loans to pay for a degree that gave them very limited job opportunities. Also, we are largely failing in public education for k-12 in inner cities so how would free college help this population? Free college is primarily a government benefit for the upper class.

And what is to stop new colleges from opening up and bringing in students (who really aren't qualified for higher education) at the expense of taxpayers?

 

[ripskater]

I really don't get the push for "free" college.

Anytime politicians can make another regulated program and grow the federal govt., they will push for that opportunity to do so.

I think it primarily sounds good to people who made a bad decision and took out student loans to pay for a degree that gave them very limited job opportunities. Also, we are largely failing in public education for k-12 in inner cities so how would free college help this population? Free college is primarily a government benefit for the upper class.

And what is to stop new colleges from opening up and bringing in students (who really aren't qualified for higher education) at the expense of taxpayers?

If college is free, and people don't have to spend their own money, it's just more incentive for people to squander their opportunity by screwing off in college.