Clinching - why is it legal?

[Seano]

I absolutely agree with you. Joe Cortez is a prime example of a cherry-picked ref who lets Floyd get away with murder!

Nonsense. What you mean to say is that Joe Cortez should have let more fighters do illegal shit to Floyd.

 

[Seano]

@aries, did I lose your response about Lomachenko's holding against Salido in this clusterfuck of posts? Why'd the ef let him get away with it? Should have been DQ'd, right?

 

[aries]

a 6 minute highlight of Floyds 50 fight career proves it eh?

lol, the very first clip in your video proves exactly what I said. Look at Maidana put his arms around Floyd instead of throwing. Thanks for posting that. You proved you're not paying attention to whats being said.

I especially like the clip of Oscar hitting Floyd in the balls as an example of Floyd's fuckery.

At about :50 seconds, Maidana wraps up and hits Floyd on the back of the head. Damn you Floyd!

Cotto wraps him up in the very next clip but notice the ref let it go when Cotto landed a little uppercut? Probably not, I doubt you even watched it. 85% of the examples are in line with exactly what I said.

The times Floyd actually does reach out and grab in that vid, the ref immediately comes in and breaks it. Such favoritism!

OK you wanna do it like that? Let's go over it in detail then.

First example opponent comes in swinging punches, Floyd ducks and body locks him, then over hooks an arm. Floyd holding.

Second example opponent throwing punches at Floyd. Floyd reaches out mummy style obtains an over under position. Floyd holding.

Third example Floyd coming in head at waist level achieves a body lock with one arm and overhook with the other. Floyd holding.

Fourth example. Oscar coming in. Floyd ducks and swims for the underhook. Then achieves the underhook with the other arm. Floyd holding.

Fifth example opponent swinging on Floyd. Floyd gets the headlock. Abandons it and goes for an overhook instead. Floyd holding.

Sixth example JMM comes in head low. Floyd leans down on him pressing down on JMM's head. This one you could argue was JMM's fault.

Seventh example, Oscar punches at Floyd. Floyd shoots the underhook. Oscar then underhooks with his free arm. This was fairly even.

But now I'm getting bored. You can see a pattern developing with Floyd initiating 90% of the holds.

Stop talking shit Seano.

 

[Breaducce]

I'm still waiting for a reply....

You just said it depends on how the other guy reacts!?

I'll ask again: Should a fighter who initiates a clinch and immediately holds with both arms be warned?

Your justification earlier in the thread was the skill and craft of clinch fighting, in this situation there is neither, just plain holding.

I think the answer is it depends. I think most peoples issues should not be with the fighters but rather the refs. I can't tell you how many times I get annoyed when refs separate perfectly good clinches rather then telling the guys to work out. Now if a fighter clinches and, and then begins to work inside or step back when the ref tells them to work out of it then that is fine. Clinches can be used to set up offense in the phone booth, but they can also be used to stop an offensive fighters momentum very briefly, giving the defensive fighter a brief breakt. If the fighter holds when a ref calls for work or while a clinch fighter is trying to work, then they should be warned. But often times the ref just separates the fighters after a clinch, when oftentimes it is unnecessary, or when it is obvious that both fighters do not have an effective inside game to fight in those specific clinching positions effectively. I think a good example of this would be to compare Kell Brooks fights against Shawn Porter and and Errol Spence. In the first fight Kell landed his one two and then fell inside and clinched with Porter who just did not have a good enough inside game to combat this, however, the times Kell tried this against Errol he was made to pay to the point that he was far less willing to initiate clinches.

 

[Seano]

OK you wanna do it like that? Let's go over it in detail then.

First example opponent comes in swinging punches, Floyd ducks and body locks him, then over hooks an arm. Floyd holding.

Second example opponent throwing punches at Floyd. Floyd reaches out mummy style obtains an over under position. Floyd holding.

Third example Floyd coming in head at waist level achieves a body lock with one arm and overhook with the other. Floyd holding.

Fourth example. Oscar coming in. Floyd ducks and swims for the underhook. Then achieves the underhook with the other arm. Floyd holding.

Fifth example opponent swinging on Floyd. Floyd gets the headlock. Abandons it and goes for an overhook instead. Floyd holding.

Sixth example JMM comes in head low. Floyd leans down on him pressing down on JMM's head. This one you could argue was JMM's fault.

Seventh example, Oscar punches at Floyd. Floyd shoots the underhook. Oscar then underhooks with his free arm. This was fairly even.

But now I'm getting bored. You can see a pattern developing with Floyd initiating 90% of the holds.

Stop talking shit Seano.

You're wrong. The very first clip, Maidana puts his arms right around Floyd and accepts the clinch making it an illegal position. He should have thrown there instead of tying up , like he did at other points in the fight. Did Floyd refuse to break when the ref came in and broke it? No? So nothing illegal then? huh.

 

[aries]

@aries, did I lose your response about Lomachenko's holding against Salido in this clusterfuck of posts? Why'd the ef let him get away with it? Should have been DQ'd, right?

Don't know what happened to it but I'll repeat YES Lomachenko should have been warned for holding. BUT Cole didn't warn Salido for low blowing which he started in round 1 of the fight. Loma didn't start holding until mid way into the fight. And Loma was holding a lot because Salido was coming in with his head low. In fact once Salido actually headbutted Loma in the groin! If the ref had been doing his job in the first place Salido would have never got away with so many low blows.

 

[Seano]

Yeah I would expect the Ref to penalise ANY illegal action BUT the fact was Salido started low blowing WAY before Loma started holding. The ref didn't do his job so why should Loma be penalised for holding when he was just trying to stop Salido low blowing? Also Salido was coming in with his head low, so low that once he 'headbutted' Loma in the groin! Of course if you come in that low an opponent is going to end up leaning on you. Lawrence Cole didn't do his job as a referee, in fact I'd go so far to say that it was the worse refereeing I've ever seen in a professional boxing match.

What a hypocrite you are.

So no one should get away with coming in dirty on Lomachenko and HE should be allowed to hold because of it but Floyd should have just dealt with it and the ref is just a cunt.

 

[aries]

You're wrong. The very first clip, Maidana puts his arms right around Floyd and accepts the clinch making it an illegal position. He should have thrown there instead of tying up , like he did at other points in the fight. Did Floyd refuse to break when the ref came in and broke it? No? So nothing illegal then? huh.

No you are wrong. Floyd comes in with his head and places it on Maidana hip. Illegal already. Floyd gets the body lock. Then Maidana's arm which is protecting his left side from Floyds head comes in for the underhook. Floyd has initiated the holding. Try again. Floyd is holding here NOT clinching as he makes no attempt to work from the position. Illegal.

 

[aries]

What a hypocrite you are.

So no one should get away with coming in dirty on Lomachenko and HE should be allowed to hold because of it but Floyd should have just dealt with it and the ref is just a cunt.

No you are moving the goal posts by trying to make a strawman argument. Loma should have been warned, as I said, but Salido also should have been warned and several rounds before. If Salido wasn't committing the foul then Loma wouldn't have fouled. Simple.

 

[Seano]

No you are moving the goal posts by trying to make a strawman argument. Loma should have been warned, as I said, but Salido also should have been warned and several rounds before. If Salido wasn't committing the foul then Loma wouldn't have fouled. Simple.

You got schooled here. Accept it.

 

[Breaducce]

No you are talking shit now. Floyd regularly entered into holding with both arms wrapping up his opponent. He has no intention of working but just holds until the referee breaks them. He should be penalised because excessive 'clinching' is seen as holding. These are the WBC's rules on it:
A list of common fouls that may be committed by boxers (or seconds, where the context is appropriate) that may be cause for penalty or disqualification is as follows:
13. Excessive holding the opponent or maintaining a clinch.

Read it and understand it. Maintaining a clinch is holding. DO YOU GET IT NOW?

Floyd HOLDS a lot. They even made a youtube video of him doing it. Still deny it?? But Floyd never got warned for holding. It was ridiculous what he was allowed to get away with.

For me its the refs that screw up these positions, they need to let the fighters work out of that position but they often separate the fighters unnecessarily, or when the fighters both appear to be accepting the clinch and are not willing or able to work inside. I just re-watched the first Ward-Kovalev fight and of course Kovalev attempted to clinch and sometimes hold inside after throwing his shots to halt ward from getting his work off when they got near each other , and Wards punished Kovalev for this especially to the body, which slowed Kovalev down significantly. Again, the ref needs to let the fighters work, but if a fighter clinches and the ref separates them immediately every time without calling for them to work out of it then from my perspective it is on the ref.

 

[ironfist05]

You got schooled here. Accept it.

nah he's right though. Loma's holding was bad, but focusing on that is like focusing on the money lost during a fatal mugging. Also, it's not super common for holding to lead to DQs (as you called for), usually just point deductions. But constant nut shots do have a precedent for DQ. I can only think of one time that holding has gotten somebody DQed in the pros, I can think of a few for nut shots.

 

[I am your real dad]

If the refs would let them fight themselves out of it you would see less of it.

 

[Seano]

For me its the refs that screw up these positions, they need to let the fighters work out of that position but they often separate the fighters unnecessarily, or when the fighters both appear to be accepting the clinch and are not willing or able to work inside. I just re-watched the first Ward-Kovalev fight and of course Kovalev attempted to clinch and sometimes hold inside after throwing his shots to halt ward from getting his work off when they got near each other , and Wards punished Kovalev for this especially to the body, which slowed Kovalev down significantly. Again, the ref needs to let the fighters work, but if a fighter clinches and the ref separates them immediately every time without calling for them to work out of it then from my perspective it is on the ref.

I would actually agree that Joe Cortez (because we were discussing him earlier) was a little quick to break up clinches but the argument seems to be that he allowed it to go on too much. I like a ref that takes a second to get in there and break it. Give them a second to fight. Joe Cortez breaks it IMMEDIATELY, which is within the rules I guess but it'd be nice to occasionally see a fighter try to work there, so long as its clean.

 

[Seano]

nah he's right though. Loma's holding was bad, but focusing on that is like focusing on the money lost during a fatal mugging. Also, it's not super common for holding to lead to DQs (as you called for), usually just point deductions. But constant nut shots do have a precedent for DQ. I can only think of one time that holding has gotten somebody DQed in the pros, I can think of a few for nut shots.

You're agreeing with me,actually.
He's right about Lomachenko because I used that example against him. I agree Lomachenko didn't deserve any point deduction, Salido was fighting just as dirty. the point is that I don't see Floyd being favored because JOe Cortez wouldn't allow Hatton to rabbit punch. Rabbit punching and low blows are hard fouls. Fouls that cause injury. That matters.

 

[Seano]

If the refs would let them fight themselves out of it you would see less of it.

Sometimes. Some guys have created entire styles around clinching and holding though, John Ruiz for example. You need a ref to break that shit up.

 

[ironfist05]

You're agreeing with me,actually.
He's right about Lomachenko because I used that example against him. I agree Lomachenko didn't deserve any point deduction, Salido was fighting just as dirty.

Rabbit punching and low blows are hard fouls. Fouls that cause injury. That matters.

That's a horrible false equivalence, and hte fact that you specifically mention fouls that cause injury as being fundamentally different from clinching proves that. I don't even care about Floyd, I didn't like Cortez's work with Hatton but it isn't out of hte ordinary. But Salido got away with fouls most fighters would get DQed for. THere is no equivalence between that and Loma holding.

 

[Absolut]

a lot of clinching and grabbing in this thread...

 

[Seano]

That's a horrible false equivalence, and hte fact that you specifically mention fouls that cause injury as being fundamentally different from clinching proves that. I don't even care about Floyd, I didn't like Cortez's work with Hatton but it isn't out of hte ordinary. But Salido got away with fouls most fighters would get DQed for. THere is no equivalence between that and Loma holding.

No, you're misunderstanding. The ref wasn't seeing most of Salido's fouls. I already said that low blows are more egregious fouls than holding. I wish you'd read the thread so I wouldn't have to go over this again.

The point here is that clinching is not illegal and a few posters were not clear about the difference between a clinch and holding. Then I pointed out that people always seemed to ignore that Floyd was getting fouled while he was clinching OR his opponents were clinching as well.

 

[Seano]

a lot of clinching and grabbing in this thread...

Two totally different things going on here!