Law Citizenship Question on 2020 Census CANCELLED

That's "the people", which has a very different historical/legal meaning from just "people".

What does "the people" refer to then? Voters? Citizens? All persons present in USA territory? All persons on Earth? If the Framers meant "citizens," why didn't they just say so?

And if "the people" (used as a singular collective noun) has some meaning approximating "the citizenry," then why shouldn't "persons" mean "citizens?" After all, both "people" and "persons" are different forms of the same noun.
 
Apparently the text is not as clear as you believe it is. Hopefully the advocates for your position approach the Court with a stronger argument.

What current court case are you talking about? The current residency question will not affect how people are counted for apportionment.

Also, those who want to go down the "citizen only" route are, of course, free to do so but that will be playing the same semantics games that the anti-2A tried and lost.
 
What does "the people" refer to then? Voters? Citizens?

The citizens of the United States at the time of the signing of the US Constitution.

And if "the people" (used as a singular collective noun) has some meaning approximating "the citizenry," then why shouldn't "persons" mean "citizens?" After all, both "people" and "persons" are different forms of the same noun.

It's the addition of the definite article "the" which changes the meaning. The statements (1) "I like pizza" and (2) "I like the pizza" have quite different meanings.
 
9 million Americans live outside the US.

They vote.
They file taxes.

They aren't counted in the census.
 
The citizens of the United States at the time of the signing of the US Constitution.

It's the addition of the definite article "the" which changes the meaning. The statements (1) "I like pizza" and (2) "I like the pizza" have quite different meanings.

One noun is used the collective sense, the other is not. It doesn't change the meaning of the word "pizza."
 
One noun is used the collective sense, the other is not. It doesn't change the meaning of the word "pizza."
It changes the meaning from "all pizza" or "most pizza" to "a specific pizza".

"We the People" refers to the people the framers were representing when they wrote the Constitution. "people" just refers to human beings.

Anyway, I've said all I can on this point. Even if we still disagree, I am pleased that there are still people like you out there who actually care about the rule of law.
 
What current court case are you talking about? The current residency question will not affect how people are counted for apportionment.

Also, those who want to go down the "citizen only" route are, of course, free to do so but that will be playing the same semantics games that the anti-2A tried and lost.

The issue comes up frequently enough, although I don't believe that question was certified in the current case mentioned in the OP. I do however see that some of the amici curiae briefed the issue extensively, as have other parties before them.

It's worth noting that respondents in this case (i.e., the original plaintiffs below) have staked a substantial amount of their argument on the Enumerations clause, arguing that "The Constitution requires an 'actual Enumeration' of the population [and] enumeration must count all residents, regardless of citizenship." (Brief of Respondents at p.2.) That argument actually lost in the district court, as petitioners point out, but respondents somehow believe that the current SCOTUS affirm on that basis. IMO, this was a tactically stupid move, because Petitioners did not raise that issue in the petition, and but for Respondents' brief, the SCOTUS would have no occasion to consider it. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the question of whether "persons" refers to citizens in the Enumeration Clause is technically an open question. Unless the Court dodges Respondents' "Enumeration Clause" arguments entirely (as they may, because the question isn't certified), the Court must address whether unlawfully present persons may be counted in the census, and thus used to apportion seats in Congress. And if they do address that issue, I think we can all agree that they are unlikely to be sympathetic to Respondents.
 
It changes the meaning from "all pizza" or "most pizza" to "a specific pizza".

"We the People" refers to the people the framers were representing when they wrote the Constitution. "people" just refers to human beings.

Anyway, I've said all I can on this point. Even if we still disagree, I am pleased that there are still people like you out there who actually care about the rule of law.

Right back atcha bud. Cheers!
 
The issue comes up frequently enough, although I don't believe that question was certified in the current case mentioned in the OP. I do however see that some of the amici curiae briefed the issue extensively, as have other parties before them.

It's worth noting that respondents in this case (i.e., the original plaintiffs below) have staked a substantial amount of their argument on the Enumerations clause, arguing that "The Constitution requires an 'actual Enumeration' of the population [and] enumeration must count all residents, regardless of citizenship." (Brief of Respondents at p.2.) That argument actually lost in the district court, as petitioners point out, but respondents somehow believe that the current SCOTUS affirm on that basis. IMO, this was a tactically stupid move, because Petitioners did not raise that issue in the petition, and but for Respondents' brief, the SCOTUS would have no occasion to consider it. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the question of whether "persons" refers to citizens in the Enumeration Clause is technically an open question. Unless the Court dodges Respondents' "Enumeration Clause" arguments entirely (as they may, because the question isn't certified), the Court must address whether unlawfully present persons may be counted in the census, and thus used to apportion seats in Congress. And if they do address that issue, I think we can all agree that they are unlikely to be sympathetic to Respondents.


I almost certain that this ends with the citizenship question allowed and the apportionment issue ignored. I doubt the SCOTUS will want to open the can of worms that is why the Founders used the word person and not citizen and why contemporaneously with the writing of the Constitution non-Citizens were counted in apportionment and have been for 250 years but should now change.
 
I almost certain that this ends with the citizenship question allowed and the apportionment issue ignored.

Courts punt on big legal questions all the time. Part of that is commitment to judicial restraint, but I suspect part of that is also laziness. Every opinion of the court has the potential to throw the law into a state of chaos. The amount of research it takes to ensure that a ruling is correct and comports with existing law is astronomical. And that’s assuming the judges agree. It get far more complicated when the Court is divided.

I doubt the SCOTUS will want to open the can of worms that is why the Founders used the word person and not citizen and why contemporaneously with the writing of the Constitution non-Citizens were counted in apportionment and have been for 250 years but should now change.

In this case, I think the Court would be more prudent to answer this question before it leads to civil unrest down the line. But yeah, I agree, the Court probably doesn’t want to open a can of worms if it doesn’t have to.
 
The Supreme Court put the census question on hold:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.w...9-b570-6416efdc0803_story.html?outputType=amp

Why? Because Roberts decided that liberals should be allowed to second-guess the executive branch (it was another 5-4 decision). Now it goes back to the Dept of Commerce, and they need to come up with a clearer explanation for the question.

On the bright side, the Court didn’t strike down the question on its face, as the Left wanted. Still, it’s an absurd result. Goes to show the difference one judge can have over the direction of our country.
 
Don’t pretend that discovering the census question was formulated to politically disadvantage minorities and consolidate power for Republicans has nothing to do with the court looking at it with skepticism.
 
The bigotry! On a scale of 1-10 I can't even!!!
 
There is a positive to be found from this ruling, in the context of the Second Amendment.

"The people" now has precedent to be interpreted as broadly as possible.
 
There is a positive to be found from this ruling, in the context of the Second Amendment.

"The people" now has precedent to be interpreted as broadly as possible.

The Court rejected plaintiffs’ constitutional argument under the Enumeration Clause, as well as the Census Act argument. The citizenship question is substantively fine. The ruling was based on the Administrative Procedures Act. Basically, the Census Bureau needs to fix its paperwork. Hopefully that happens before the census goes out.
 
The Court rejected plaintiffs’ constitutional argument under the Enumeration Clause, as well as the Census Act argument. The citizenship question is substantively fine. The ruling was based on the Administrative Procedures Act. Basically, the Census Bureau needs to fix its paperwork. Hopefully that happens before the census goes out.

Administration argued the census needs to go to printersin 3 days.

So that seems to be unlikely. Unless the administration was lying about that too, like they did about why they wanted the citizenship question in the first place.
 
Administration argued the census needs to go to printersin 3 days.

So that seems to be unlikely. Unless the administration was lying about that too, like they did about why they wanted the citizenship question in the first place.

That’s the date it should be printed under normal circumstances, but ultimately it’s a self-imposed deadline. Based on the Court’s ruling, they could justifiably push it back a few months. It could be pushed back until October.
 
Why? Is there some sort of legislative prohibition against the Commerce Secretary adding questions that might reduce response rate?

Just saw this months later - there's no legislative prohibition, I would say there's a constitutional prohibition if the reason for adding the question is to actually reduce effectiveness of the Census.

A simple reduction in accuracy isn't a problem. Intentionally doing so might be. The "pretext" as the Court alluded to.
 
Also, it looks like I'm 2 for 2 today. I should increase my hourly fee, lol.
 
That’s the date it should be printed under normal circumstances, but ultimately it’s a self-imposed deadline. Based on the Court’s ruling, they could justifiably push it back a few months. It could be pushed back until October.
The court already called the administration liars. This one is over.
 
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