Cissus

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by GoatRider, Nov 11, 2005.

  1. GoatRider

    GoatRider Purple Belt

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    anybody take this? if so, what's your experience?

    i train in wing chun kung fu, which is really heavy on wristlocks and other small and large joint manipulation. i'm usually not even close to healed in between sessions and have a lot of residual pain in my wrists, elbows, shoulders, and fingers that the topical dit da jao just doesn't help. Cissus is purported to help with this type of stuff. your thoughts?
     
  2. supersudo

    supersudo Purple Belt

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    never used it.... just use tiger balm

    or glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, fish oil, <--all of which are good for joints..
     
  3. Wolverine

    Wolverine Green Belt

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    I have it but have not used it. They say it is good for tendonitis which is what I have in my elbow.
     
  4. GoatRider

    GoatRider Purple Belt

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    good info, thanks.

    what's in tiger balm? i used to use it as like a vicks type rub when i was a kid, haven't seen it for several years though.
     
  5. nhbfan8080

    nhbfan8080 Black Belt

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    Cissus is also an analgesic. So you shouldn't go heavy if you use it for joint issues since it will mask any pain.
    Healing ligament/tendons take a while so don't be a n00b and think cissus will fix things right away.
     
  6. Rjkd12

    Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

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    You cannot heal ligaments.

    Cissus has a steroid in it that ONLY was shown to assist in bone healing from mechanical bending that resulted in a break. I think cissus is legal because either A) nobody knows about it, or B) it doesn't have enough of the steroid in it in pill form to worry.

    I did a lot of research on it, do a search you'll find 2 threads with A LOT of info in them.

    I think it has promise in a higher doseage. I commented on the exact dosage in those threads. The dose is VERY low compared to what the gave the rabbits in the studies. I think its a waste of money.
     
  7. nhbfan8080

    nhbfan8080 Black Belt

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    Possibly not with cissus but ligaments can heal.

    The search indexes are screwed and I couldn't find your thread. Do you still have the info. What brand of cissus did you research?
     
  8. Rjkd12

    Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

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    Well, define "heal." If a ligament is stretched, the only way to shorten it is by surgury. That is the only damage I know of for ligaments. This is why ACL/MCL/PCL crap is so bad, because the only choice is surgury.

    Leverage.tv put up a reseach article on it and looked into that. I didn't look into ciccusRX, I looked more into the main ingredient cissus quadralangus or whatever. There were only 3 papers on it back from the mid 70's. Then I looked for more papers and they only were on weird things like ovarectomized (ovaries removed) rats. I talked to a teacher who found a paper that said it had some (estrogen I believe) derived steroid in it. So that was probably why the animals that received fractures healed faster. I'm all for it under two conditions. One is I need a bone brake, not a sore wrist or hyperextended joint, a break. Second is I would want it in the doesages they gave the rabbits which is much more than the pill can offer. Cissus the plant is valuable, not cissusRX the supp.
     
  9. LeveRAGE.tv

    LeveRAGE.tv White Belt

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    Why can you not heal ligaments? Is that fact?

    Please references your facts, or they are just opinions. Cissus does not have a steroid in it. Cissus has several steroids, but these are plant sterols. You research is seiously flawed or limited.

    Cissus is a product that is sold out and impossible to keep stocked. You are a moderator of a supplement forum so that must qualify as medical advice.
     
  10. LeveRAGE.tv

    LeveRAGE.tv White Belt

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    Cissus RX is the product name which contains Cissus Quadrangularis the plant, but to further our cause. We have a patent pending on extraction of the acitve constituents that makes Cissus Rx a superior product.

    Train on!1
     
  11. LeveRAGE.tv

    LeveRAGE.tv White Belt

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    There is not an exact dosage, but we are narrowing it down in our studies.

    ceosm
     
  12. Rjkd12

    Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

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    HAHA Look who returns. There must be a mole on the board to give you info. Either that or you check this board every day and offer no advice but to back up your product.

    I will get you guys some info soon.

    With the ligaments I have already stated why I do not think they can be healed. I have heard this from many professors. Like I said ACL/MCL ect injuries ALWAYS go to surgery because rehab won't fix them. I'll get some sources on this one. Leverage, why not give me some sources that show ligaments can heal? Why put it all on my back? You bitch about other people without studies, why not come up with your own?

    I am not a moderator. Either way I do back up what I say with studies. You have not. I do not want to rehash this. The whole convo is in the archives.

    I know Cissus Quadrangularis is in cissus RX but that doesn't mean your product works. The dosage difference is the problem. There is no exact dosage, but the dosage you talk about in your "studies" used a lot more than what is in your product. Care to explain that? Care to give any more recent literature? Care to give some literature about the dosages that you have found to work?

    Leverage, I have to admit, you are a great salesman. I just hope the sherdoggers are smart enough to see through your crap.
     
  13. LeveRAGE.tv

    LeveRAGE.tv White Belt

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    I am not the doctor. You stated that ligaments can not heal. I was curious and intriqued and was hoping it was beyond an "I think."

    The dosage in current literature is between 3 to 6 grams. Once capsule of cissus has 800mg so at 5 caps a day, the user gets an effective dose.

    We are sold out of cissus (go to synergymuscle.com, sold out). I am not peddling anything on Sherdog. The "sherdoggers" and logical people understand that one mans opinion is not gospel. You are obvioulsy biased and full of second hand knowledge.

    Cissus will work for some and will not work for others.

    take care
     
  14. nhbfan8080

    nhbfan8080 Black Belt

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    LeveRAGE.tv,
    How does cissusrx compare with sterobol link ?
    Whats the difference between 5% ketosterols and 20:1(for sterobol)?

    You said the product contains 800mg per cap but the description reads 1220mg per 2 caps. So one cap is only 6110mg?

    I don't have access to studies currently so could you please send me a few links?? I'd like to read up. Feel free to pm.

    Why would it not work for some? Did everyone get the analgesic effects at least?

    Ligaments don't heal? Even stretched ligaments aka grade 1 sprain? I'm surprised you got that info. ACL/MCL sprains could are different from shoulder/ankle/wrist.
    So do you have more info?
     
  15. Rjkd12

    Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

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    Nor am I. You should be able to know how to look up and find information about studies before you produce your own or claim that the recent literature says anything. If you are not able to look up if ligaments can heal, how can we trust you have looked up the most recent literature on the product you are selling?

    You are the one with the product. I would assume before you go off to India and find this plant you would first look to see if ligaments can be healed or not. You are the one with the product that you are selling, so the burden of proof is with you. You are lucky enough that I don't mind finding my own proof proving you wrong. Either way, you are the one with the product, why not prove to me first that ligaments can be healed BEFORE you tell me you have a specific product that can heal them?

    3 to 6 grams what? ALL literature bases its doses on grams/kg. PLEASE oh PLEASE show me this current literature. PLEASE post a study that shows 3 to 6 grams per whatever work. I would love to see it. Don't say current studies unless you have "current studies" to post.

    I recently cleaned out my study and threw out the papers from the mid 70's. I do not have the time to go back to the library and re-look them up (they are not online). If someone can find the old thread the doses used in that literature are listed. If not hopefully NHB fan will find the studies and post what he thinks, including the doseages used.

    People selling Chromium Piccolinate were sold out for a while too. That drug was HELLA hot. Same with Myostatin blockers. I assume the same fat for your products as those.

    .

    I am letting people on sherdog choose for themselves. I know sherdoggers don't take my opinion as gospel, I have been wrong in the past and will continue to be wrong. I don't have a problem admitting I make mistakes. I though, unlike you, back up what I say with primary and secondary literature.

    NHB, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

    That is a search on Pubmed. If you have not read research articles before these may be a bit overwhelming. Maybe do an internet search? I dunno. The studies that I read and quoted from are the three from 1970. The more recent ones have nothing to do with bone/muscle/ligament stuff. Let us know what you find if you search.

    I will definitly have stuff about ligaments tomorrow. I am about to go out and don't have the time to do a good search on the stuff. But one more thing for levearage.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1769715&query_hl=1

    Mutagenic means "An agent, such as a chemical, ultraviolet light, or a radioactive element, that can induce or increase the frequency of mutation in an organism."

    Good stuff Leverage. Produce a product that actually could cause cancer by increasing mutagenesis of the person taking it.
     
  16. Rjkd12

    Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

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    Ok, I typed up this whole thing and lost it. So, I'm just going to give you the meat and potatoes.

    There isn't a lot of info out there that is easy accessible. Here is the best thing I found.
    Biomechanics of knee ligament healing, repair and reconstruction
    Journal of Biomechanics, Volume 30, Issue 5, May 1997, Pages 431-439

    In it they state that even 48 weeks after the injury the ligaments were not mechanically the same as control. They were 63% (ish) percent healed when compared to control.

    Ligaments resist tensile forces very well. They deform and go back to their original length very nicely. But at a very high force they will yield and permanently deform. When this happens they are "stretched out" and will not go back to their original resting length. Then surgery is needed. Think of pulling on some soft plastic or something and then eventually pulling too hard. If it doesn't snap will will deform at one spot, and will never go back to its original length.

    So, I should not have said ligaments do not heal, because they do. Ligaments do not heal at a practical speed though and that is why surgery is mostly done.

    That is also why some athletes who stretch too much end up with problems because their ligaments are too stretched out to provide the support they are supposed to. Also this is why certain athletic routines are avoided now because of the realization that ligaments permanently deform. Two quick examples. Heavy hands is when people walk around with weights. This and running with ankle weights or shadowboxing with hand weights is very bad. The "pulling" on the joints will stretch out the ligaments. Also tennis players used to do very dynamic stretches of the wrist with a stick and a weight attached at the end. They would whip it around all over the place to "strengthen" the wrist. That only lasted until a few tennis players had damaged their wrists by stretching out their ligaments.
     
  17. nhbfan8080

    nhbfan8080 Black Belt

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    Ok, that makes sense. I still think the vast majority of grade1 sprains are fully recoverable since they are not excessively stretched in the first place.

    LeveRAGE.tv,
    Can you answer my 2 questions in my previous post???
     
  18. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    OMFG, this again?

    With ligaments, depending on your definition of heal (is the criterion ROM or collagen fiber rigidity?)...it doesn't matter. What can't be "healed" with surgery can only be healed with time.

    I'm not reading any more studies from before my parents conceived me, based on the principles of the Great Transcendentalist and transcribed by his mythical monks atop the exotic mountainous nation of Bhutan.

    I'm not doing that shit again.
     
  19. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    You know, it's funny that you mention that, because Terumo was in here a couple weeks ago, and...oh, BTW, Terumo isn't just a doctor, he's also a Ph.D...and he said the same thing RJKD, BoxingFan, and I think also Entropy said in the last thread in which Cissus was discussed.
     
  20. LeveRAGE.tv

    LeveRAGE.tv White Belt

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    The vast majority of doctors are not educated in herbal or supplement remedies. I challenge all who visit their doctors to ask a questions about supplements, and you usually get the same answer or a shurg of the sholders.

    And as far as Rkjd claims of cissus being mutagenic (going off an abstract without seeing the full study does not qualify as research). What was the testing method? What was the amounts used? Was is a rat or human study?

    If we are posting abstracts then

    Antioxidant and antimicrobial activity of Cissus quadrangularis L.

    Chidambara Murthy KN, Vanitha A, Mahadeva Swamy M, Ravishankar GA.

    Cell Biotechnology Department, Central Food Technological Research Institute, Mysore 570 013, India.

    Extracts of Cissus quadrangularis L. were tested for antioxidant activity by beta-carotene linoleic acid model and also by 1,1-diphenyl-2-picrylhydrazyl model. The ethyl acetate fraction of both fresh and dry stem extracts at a concentration of 100 ppm showed 64.8% antioxidant activity in the beta-carotene linoleic acid system and 61.6% in the 1,1-diphenyl-2-picrylhydrazyl system. This fraction showed the presence of sterols, vitamin C, and tannins as phytoconstituents. The antioxidant activity of methanol extract and aqueous extract were comparatively less significant than that of ethyl acetate extract, and n-hexane extract showed the least activity. The ethyl acetate extract and methanol extract of both fresh and dry stems further exhibited antimicrobial activity against Gram-positive bacteria, including Bacillus subtilis, Bacillus cereus, Staphylococcus aureus, and Streptococcus species. The results of the study have implications in the use of C. quadrangularis as an antibacterial agent and more so as an antioxidant in several applications requiring these properties.

    Those versed in herbal medicine are aware that a whole plant my be toxic. Which is common with herbal medicine. For example the leaves may be toxic but the stem is therapuetic. Its also common knowledge that antioxidants can become prooxidants in high dosages.

    Not sure why but you try so hard to discredit my products.

    I will post a FULL TEXT study in the next couple days that covers Cissus toxicity...which there is not a toxicity issue.

    those truly interested without biased personalities please e-mail [email protected].

    Train on!1
     

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